2nd UPDATE: After refusing to directly answer questions about her history as an alleged torturer, Ray McGovern decided to ask Gina Haspel a question or two of his own and he wound up in jail for it, reports Joe Lauria.
Updated with news that McGovern returned home and details of him being charged with Unlawful Disruption of Congress and Resisting Arrest.
By Joe Lauria Special to Consortium News
Instead of facing a judge to defend herself against prosecution for violating U.S. law prohibiting torture, 33-year CIA veteran Gina Haspel on Wednesday faced the Senate Intelligence Committee in a hearing to confirm her as director of the Central Intelligence Agency.
Haspel does not look like someone who would be associated with torture. Instead she would not be out of place as your next door neighbor or as a kindly grade-school teacher. “I think you will find me to be a typical middle-class American,” she said in her opening statement.
Haspel is the face of America. She not only looks harmless, but looks like she wants to help: perhaps to recommend a good gardener to hire or to spread democracy around the globe while upholding human rights wherever they are violated.
But this perfectly typical middle class American personally supervised a black site in Thailand where terrorism suspects were waterboarded. It remains unclear whether she had a direct role in the torture. The CIA said she arrived at the black site after the waterboarding of senior al-Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah had taken place. Some CIA officials disputed that to The New York Times. The newspaper also reported last year that Haspel ran the CIA Thai prison in 2002 when another suspect, Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, was waterboarded.
Even if she did not have a direct hand in overseeing the torture, she certainly acquiesced to it. And if that were not bad enough, Haspel
Haspel: Won’t say if torture is immoral. (Screenshot from Today Show)
urged the destruction of 92 videotaped CIA “enhanced interrogations,” conducted at the prison in Thailand, eliminating evidence in a clear-cut obstruction of justice to cover-up her own possible crimes.
At her public hearing Haspel refused to say that the torture was immoral. Instead she tried to romanticize her nefarious past in adolescent language about the spy trade, about going to secret meetings on “dark, moonless nights,” in the “dusty back alleys of Third World capitals.”
Haspel claimed to have a “strong moral compass.” We really can’t know because we only found out about what she did in Thailand in 2002 because of press reports. Just about everything else she did during her three decades at the agency remains shrouded in secrecy because she refused to declassify almost all of her record for the committee.
“Bloody Gina,” as some CIA colleagues called her, told the hearing she would not re-institute the “enhanced interrogation” program if she became director. One wonders if the US were attacked again like on 9/11 if she would keep her vow, especially as she admitted nothing wrong with “enhanced interrogation” the first time.
Haspel testified that the U.S. has a new legal framework that governs detentions and interrogations forbidding what she refused to call torture. But the U.S. already had a law on the books against it when the Senate ratified the international Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment on October 21, 1994. Every time the U.S. “tortured some folks” after that, as Barack Obama put it, it broke U.S. law.
In speaking about it in a folksy way, Obama was minimizing the enormity of the crime and justifying his decision to not prosecute any American who may have taken part in it. That includes Haspel. So instead of facing the law she’s facing a career promotion to one of the most powerful positions in the United States, if not the world.
McGovern Speaks Out
Haspel tried to wiggle out of relentless questioning about whether she thought torture was immoral, let alone illegal. Completely ignoring U.S. ratification of the Convention Against Torture, Haspel clung to the new Army Field Manual, which contains a loophole in an annex added after 9/11 that justifies cruel punishment, but not specifically torture.
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), who was tortured in Vietnam, had no doubts about Haspel. After the hearing he issued a statement saying, “Ms. Haspel’s role in overseeing the use of torture by Americans is disturbing. Her refusal to acknowledge torture’s immorality is disqualifying.”
Because she wasn’t giving any straight answers, Ray McGovern, a CIA veteran of 27 years and frequent contributor to Consortium News, stood up in the hearing room and began asking his own questions. Capitol police were immediately ordered by the chairman, Sen. Richard Burr (R-NC), to physically remove McGovern from the room. As he continued turning towards the committee to shout his questions, four officers hauled him out. They ominously accused him of resisting arrest. Once they got him into the hallway, rather than letting him go his way, four policemen wrestled him to the ground, re-injuring his dislocated left shoulder, as they attempted to cuff him.
After spending the night in jail, McGovern, 78, was to be arraigned on Thursday. He has not responded to several voice message left on his mobile phone. A police officer at Central Booking told Consortium News McGovern was no longer under their control and had been sent to court. According to DC Superior Court, he has been charged with Unlawful Disruption of Congress and Resisting Arrest. Ray returned home Thursday night.
McGovern was one of several people arrested before and during the hearing for speaking out. The spectacle of citizens of this country, and in Ray’s case a veteran CIA officer, having to resort to disrupting a travesty of a hearing to put an alleged torturer in charge of the most powerful spy agency in the world is a disturbing indicator of how far we have come.
A Different Kind of Hearing
In 1975, Sen. Frank Church (D-ID) conducted hearings that revealed a raft of criminality committed by the CIA, the National Security Agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation over a period of thirty years from the end of the Second World War. It has been more than 40 years since that Senate investigation. After the release of the CIA Torture Report by the Senate in 2014 and the revelations about the NSA by Edward Snowden, a new Church Committee-style expansive probe into the intelligence agencies is long overdue.
A central question it should ask is whether the CIA really serves the interests of the American people or rather the interests of its rulers, which the agency has done from its founding by Wall Street elites, such as its first director, Allen Dulles.
While the Republican-controlled intelligence committee may have partisan motives to launch such a new Church-like commission to look into the agencies’ shenanigans in the Russia-gate fiasco, the majority of Republicans are hawks on intelligence matters and many support torture and want Haspel to be the next CIA director. For instance, Burr told Haspel: “You are without a doubt the most qualified person the president could choose to lead the CIA and the most prepared nominee in the 70-year history of the agency. You have acted morally, ethically and legally over a distinguished 30-year career.”
None of this bodes well for the nation.
Joe Lauria is editor-in-chief of Consortium News and a former correspondent for The Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, Sunday Times of London and numerous other newspapers. He can be reached at [email protected]
Ms Haspel does not look like a sweet , neighborly or sweet elementary school teacher, i beg to differ w/the author. Look at her carefully. Does she not look like a mouse or a rat? Maybe that’s why she became so cruel in her life.
Mr. Lauria,
” Haspel does not look like someone who would be associated with torture ”
This concerns your reaction to what haspel ‘looks like’ (see end of comment for quote). The point is precisely that that haspels strategy is PR staging to create that reaction. In the present world, unless each of consciously boots a critical sensibility to media instead of passively consuming, we fall victim to propaganda. Haspel herself gives you a clue of what the PR framing is supposed to acheive with the un-alert audience ” I think you will find me to be a typical middle-class American,” – that is the reaction they want to manipulate our mind into…
What is worse, someone who looks like ‘saddam hussein and pinochet’,, ? or a pinochet with the active cunning to monitor your mind and hide himself behind 1 or 2 or 3 layers of PR impression management, the way hollywood manipulates our reactions with canned laughter, background music etc… ?
Critical sensibility means among other things that when one is watching a performance like haspels, one actively tries to look beyond to see the puppetmaster, watching your reactions in order to manipulate them… to imagine the alien inside the school-marm
This ‘ perfectly typical middle class American ‘ is perhaps the clue to the great tragedy of the corroding of democratic institutions… that what matters in the US now, is not what a person is, but what persona they can project… where winning is everything no matter the means, so long as you can manage the PR to (self)deceive effectively about it… e.g. lance armstrong and his years of denials of cheating may be the model of modern american character…
The following are the sections in the article this comment addresses,
” Haspel does not look like someone who would be associated with torture. Instead she would not be out of place as your next door neighbor or as a kindly grade-school teacher. Haspel does not look like someone who would be associated with torture. Instead she would not be out of place as your next door neighbor or as a kindly grade-school teacher. “I think you will find me to be a typical middle-class American,” she said in her opening statement.
Haspel is the face of America. She not only looks harmless, but looks like she wants to help: perhaps to recommend a good gardener to hire or to spread democracy around the globe while upholding human rights wherever they are violated.
But this perfectly typical middle class American personally supervised a black site in Thailand where terrorism suspects were waterboarded. It remains unclear whether she had a direct role in the torture.Haspel does not look like someone who would be associated with torture. Instead she would not be out of place as your next door neighbor or as a kindly grade-school teacher. “I think you will find me to be a typical middle-class American,” she said in her opening statement.
Haspel is the face of America. She not only looks harmless, but looks like she wants to help: perhaps to recommend a good gardener to hire or to spread democracy around the globe while upholding human rights wherever they are violated.
But this perfectly typical middle class American personally supervised a black site in Thailand where terrorism suspects were waterboarded. It remains unclear whether she had a direct role in the torture.Haspel does not look like someone who would be associated with torture. Instead she would not be out of place as your next door neighbor or as a kindly grade-school teacher. “I think you will find me to be a typical middle-class American,” she said in her opening statement.
Haspel is the face of America. She not only looks harmless, but looks like she wants to help: perhaps to recommend a good gardener to hire or to spread democracy around the globe while upholding human rights wherever they are violated.
But this perfectly typical middle class American personally supervised a black site in Thailand where terrorism suspects were waterboarded. It remains unclear whether she had a direct role in the torture. she said in her opening statement.
Haspel is the face of America. She not only looks harmless, but looks like she wants to help: perhaps to recommend a good gardener to hire or to spread democracy around the globe while upholding human rights wherever they are violated.
But this perfectly typical middle class American personally supervised a black site in Thailand where terrorism suspects were waterboarded. It remains unclear whether she had a direct role in the torture. “
For years i have wondered how countries become rotten to the core. There are a number of countries now which are now rotten. Appointment of Haspel is a step towards complete violation of decency
Ray McGovern,
Sir you are a true Patriot and Hero to all freedom loving Americans. DO NOT ever think what you say and do is not RECOGNIZED. May you heal in body and mind so as to FIGHT again
The extent of the American torture tradition in Military, Law Enforcement and “Intelligence” services is so enormous, that it almost completely blocks out the more general reality behind the US regime and it’s policies realities, Armed Forces and prisons.
The matter is, that almost every aspect of the American Judicial and Law Enforcement system is in and by itself a form of torture. A Kafkaesque process with the purpose to wear individuals down, to degrade them and to implement every possible method which is used in the most dehumanizing and degrading way. One clearly visible part of this is the extreme long sentences which traditionally have been handed out for petty and most often victim-less offences, such as prostitution, cannabis or drug possession come to mind first, but there are countless other examples, where people ar put in jail for years, fir “crimes” which in most civilized countries wouldn’t even come to trial, result in a small fine or an acquittal. Likewise protests against the death penalty seem to block for what affects many more people; the general degenerate state of the prison system, the willful malice, the official policy of humiliating which can be seen in parole hearings, There is no end to it. From a European perspective this is totally weird. Yes we have bad systems here to, but the systematic and ideologically backed sadism we only know from Hollywood movies about Nazi concentration camps. I blame the the Testament Christianity with its Jewish values of revenge, law and justice to the letter and the belief in the purging effects of hellfire which seems to dominate what is called “American Values”.
No wonder fear of calling the police is so great that many people will not report violence or burglary. Too may have been killed by the uniformed murderers, who always walk scot free, even if video evidence clearly shows it was plain murder. Britain is closing in on the Americans though with the major threat of going to prison not being just doing the time, but surviving attacks from negros and muslims.
I feel so much gratitiude and compassion for Ray to have gone through this for all of us at his age! The pointless brutality of the “security” guards clearly mirrors the nature of the regime that runs this empire. I pray for Ray’s healing from this assault.
Why has this incident involving Ray McGovern’s arrest been talked about in the MSM?
I salute your courage, Ray. You too could easily have opted for a comfortable retirement but you didn’t. Only people like yourself can save your country from total moral decay.
Ms.Haspels role in the torture in the past of waterboarding, which is cruel, should say a lot about who she is. Her sweet smile, her half- answers should not fool anyone. She is still what she was yrs ago. Do not approve her, she is like a sorceresss, and evil lurks inside.
I hope these heroes in blue went hone safely after ganging up on an 80 year old gentleman. Wgat a bun h of imbevikes
Thank you Joe,
For pointing out how far this country has fallen. When a true American patriot with a distinguished CIA history like 78 year old Ray McGovern, is wrestled to the ground in a Senate conformation hearing on his dislocated left shoulder, maybe we’ve come a bit too far. If the CIA lacks a conscience, it is because guys like Ray are discredited today, one might even say physically and publically abused, when they they have something to tell the rest of us. Is this they way to treat a vet on the eve of Memorial Day? Thank you Ray for your unending service to the ideals of a country we grew up respecting, but which have now fallen into disrepute in the hands of political theater and an over funded military-industrial-information complex leading us and the world to the brink of destruction.
I guess they must think that Ray McGovern is too much like Helen Thomas. It’s not to hard to imagine that Helen would have been
treated similarly if she had been there instead of Ray.
Just unbelievable…this is supposed to be america….4 nazi attack a true american patriot…unbelievable
get this straight americans:
we blow them up, burn them to death, destroy nations, governments, cultures and worse if that’s possible, and “progressives” don’t like it but have been relatively helpless to do anything about it for, um, uh, quite some time now…
but wait just a minute! we will not tolerate torture!! you got that? kill them, brutalize them, slaughter them…but don’t you dare hurt them!!!
and some wonder that trump is president?
I like her. I like strong women as all democrats do’
I positively do NOT like her. She’s not a strong woman but one too weak to refuse to do torture. And no woman should ever condone such behavior! Where’s her compassion? Hope she’s not a mother and if she is I certainly wouldn’t want to be her child. BTW, she evaded the questions. I’ve considered myself to be a Democrat until this past election when the DNC robbed Bernie of even a chance. I didn’t vote for Hillary. She was and is a war monger and a supporter of the Israel lobby. Nor did I vote for Trump. Now I don’t consider myself to be a Democrat since they kicked out the Progressives in the party. Better check out why the Retired Intelligence Veterans for Sanity absolutely oppose her nomination. Check the facts. This should not be about opinion. Why was Ray McGovern protesting her nomination at the hearing. I recently watched him interviewed by Richie Allen out of the UK. He clearly says why he is adamantly opposed to her nomination and why he protested during the hearing. As former CIA he knows her history. His take down was way overboard. Shame on our government agencies today. Further–for others on this blog–John Kiriakou, also CIA, spent 23 months in prison for revealing that same torture program. Better review his story. TRNN has done a great series of interviews with him.
As a historian focusing on women’s studies, I’m with you!!! Haspel submitted to authority. That is not strength. That shows no conscience, empathy, or free thought.
She is a puppet!
Dorothy-
Thank you so much for this rebuttal. I saw this comment yesterday and was tempted to respond, but thought better of it. You have basically said what I wanted to say, but as a woman speaking to another woman about what it means to be strong, your voice carries more weight. Diana’s reply is spot-on as well.
Dorothy speaking to another woman ?
No, I’m sure that DD is male – definitely a masculine name.
Or a bloke masquerading as a woman.
No self styled lower case ‘d’ democrat would ever like Gina or the upper case ‘d’ Democrat losing presidential nominee.
Please do not make careless personal judgments or denunciations.
If you object, give reasons.
ANON, YOU WANT A REASON WHY I CALL HER
A SICK PERSON WHO NEEDS PSYCHIATRIC HELP ?
ANYONE WHO “LIKES” TORTURERS IS A SICK PERSON WHO NEEDS PSYCHIATRIC HELP> OK???????????????
This is funny! I heard her answers and they were perfectly clear. The problem is, the Liberal representatives didn’t want to really hear her answers; they were rude as hell to her, insisting that she answer with a yes or a no! Terrorists are not polite at all so I don’t see a problem with a little torture!
So, do you think that torture is immoral?
One of the main reasons people used to qualify Saddam Hussein as evil and thus a legitimate target for regime change was that he tortured many people.
Now it seems the British and the Americans LOVE torture.
I’m sorry but you can’t demonize people for crimes you are more than guilty of yourself.
My Senator King (male Indep) on the committee replied to my inquiry that secret information showed that she had indeed operated a torture center, and that she had destroyed evidence of torture. He felt that there would be better candidates.
My other Senator Collins (female Repub) on the committee covered up for Haspel and voted to confirm. She concealed the nature of the secret info from the public, and voted either for torture or for another female without offering any rationale.
Collins has been repeatedly elected in a low-income Dem state despite being a Rep who consistently votes against anything that could benefit those of low incomes. Apparently this is due to some women voting for women they have no other reason to vote for. That would appear to warrant a re-examination of their values and rationales, as in the case of Hillary voters. Values and policies should come first.
We are seeing that many American women have no clue how to identify psychopathy and how to spot psychopaths. This is damn scary!!!! Women, wake up and do your homework!!! Children’s lives are at stake. World survival is at stake.
Yes, and I agree with your comments here and your moderate corrections.
Not sure about the “psychopathy” usage (although clearly true of active torturers) due to the conflict presented by extreme need-to-know cases with basic human values. Some incorrectly analyze the situation and consider their acts protective.
It was incorrect to nominate Gina Haspel to head the CIA due to her coverup of torture to protect insiders. Those who advocate torture usually assume the victims to be guilty and to have knowledge, and overestimate its effectiveness in saving other lives. They need much education.
DIANA LEE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR
IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO AMERICAN WOMEN.
Nothing sexist here, folks…wtf?
She’s a woman, who would suspect a woman of having any power, for good or evil!?!
Fix it, please:
“She not only looks harmless, but looks like she wants to help: perhaps to recommend a good gardener to hire or to spread democracy around the globe while upholding rights wherever they are violated.”
You may be right, but is it helpful to the present discussion for you to raise this issue at this time? I see it as a distraction, though I can accept that for some like yourself, it may be even more important than Haspel’s fitness for office.
VALERIE KILPATRICK, WTF ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY,
THAT FEMINISTS SHOULD STAND UP AND SUPPORT TORTURERS
WHO ARE WOMEN ?!?!?! WTF WTF WTF ???????????
No, she is objecting to that notion.
The point being made is not about gender or sexism. The point is that evil does not come to us as blatant evil. It comes masked. That’s the point. She does not look like the torturer that she is. We are being challenged, as women, to look under the mask. We are being challenged to look at the system she represents. Look at the psychopathy. Look at the sadism John Kiriakou has reported. Not all women have conscience or empathy. Most do, but not all. Most of us actually project our own goodness onto psychopaths and that is extremely dangerous. We women must educate ourselves about the traits, strategies, and motivations of psychopaths and psychopathic systems. We’ve been too gullible and our gullibility is being used against us. Women who submit to illegal authority are not strong; they are enablers; they are part of the problem until they wake up.
THANK YOU AGAIN, DIANA LEE !!!
I think that we have all learned by now that what nominees say in their confirmation hearings is practically useless as an indicator of how they will perform in office (think John Roberts.) Haspel is the ultimate CIA insider who shares the agency’s values and approves of its methods. She should have been brought to justice for her crimes, but instead, she is about to become the head of a major intelligence/military organization. We are truly screwed.
But it was okay when John Brennan was in on it. In addition, John McCain (D, Traitor) has no right speaking of morality.
The footage of Ray McGovern being manhandled by a bunch of big guys is shocking! Mr McGovern is a respected man who has served his country for many decades and deserves respect and politeness, not this kind of treatment. Why was he jailed? For God’s sake, the man is 79!!! He’s not a criminal, he’s a citizen asking a question!! Is the USA now a police state?
Yes, we are now a police state, and have been for some time.
If he was disruptive, then he should be removed!
He wasn’t disruptive. Look at his RT interview. Sen. Burr had actually given spectators permission to ask quesitons. When Ray saw that Haspel was not answering and was evading the questions, Ray respectfully began his questioning. The stakes are too high for someone like Ray to sit still and be quiet. He knows too much and is willing to remain a whistleblower. (Read history of the CIA.)
America is revealing itself to be a pro-police state. Clearly, torture is not immoral to her and if tested, would not be immoral to any agency directed toward national security. Haspel should be clearly identified as a cruel, manipulative operative that wouldn’t blink stop the torture of someone that she felt had something to offer her. She is a scary woman, indeed, who willingly harms other humans should be put in prison and not elevated to another higher position.
Along with all her male conspirators. No one should be above the law.
Because he was screaming and yelling in the middle of a hearing. Just because he’s old doesn’t mean he can get away with that.
DeDe, that would be true if what you assume to be true is actually the truth; do your homework.
Probably the same troll that goes by the name of Deanna Short.
It’s the “De” prefix in the first that gives it away.
YES, LORETTA, THE USA IS A POLICE STATE. HAVE YOU JUST
AWAKENED FROM A DEEP SLEEP??? GOOD MORNING, SUNSHINE !
Not only the arrest of Ray is an abuse of power, combined the fact that this lady is a blight on a huge ‘round-about’ of our laws we preach to the world, she has to go. For those who remember Trump in his run-up mentioned he would go after the perps, the family’s and the generations who do “us” harm (as in, kill them), to know in his little brain the US created the hostility the world has against the US. I suppose when he is out golfing his version of evil are those who steal the pin on his next approach to the green. Only pure evil would wreak his golf swing.
Yes, Obama gave W a pass and he never should have.
This is all terrible news and I hope Ray is ok, and yet the message needs to be blasted out in the US, not squashed in a silent courtroom.
For her to become CIA director is an example, or proof positive, the rest of the world has no ally in the US, and they will learn, even though violence and war is detested and foul to them since they know first hand its tremendous evil toward fellow human beings.
She should be gone from the picture altogether, as well as the blood drenched Bolton. How to do it? Please let those of us create a plan to oust the evil in the US society, whether its Trump himself and all his choices for a bloody massacre. Let Bibi curl up and dehydrate before he expands his land at the expense of those who possess it.
The time for action is past approaching to save many people on this globe.
The photo of Gina has a similar expression to that of a psycopath serial killer on her way to trial. The floral pattern dress is a nice touch.
Agreed!!!
knelt, I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, there are a few psychopaths
among these commenters who think she’s great !!!!!! Have you read
what the sick DeDe Biren has to say ?!?!
You got it! I’m thinking of Ted Bundy! He never “looked” like a psychopath. He didn’t drop his mask until it was too late for his victims. That’s the lesson some women need to understand. The sexism/gender card is being used against us to sell a Trojan horse…..by people who know exactly what they are doing.
Maybe I am too cynical, but I think maybe Ray got the rough treatment from “law enforcement” to impress upon him that the powers on high can torture at will, even him, even as he protests the bad behavior. Folks like us also noticed, even as most Americans were kept in the dark by their corporate media.
Yes, a display of the unchallengeable power of the State on full display. A lesson for everyone.
I agree; Ray was an object lesson. “Don’t rock the boat!!” Isn’t that also the point of all the police violence against blacks??? Watching others being terrorized has the same effect on the brain as being terrorized. We are all being traumatized…..because traumatized people are easier to brainwash and control. The authoritarians in control know exactly what they are doing; they know how to psychologically break people.
Your comment is trite having no substance. I have to assume you are an amateur troll.
It is refreshing to see so many commenters who are concerned about our MSM and how travesty’s like what went on in the Haspel hearings go unreported. I just hope it’s not too late. I know I go back at least to 2003 on the site when net neutrality was going under the knife under Michael Powell’s FCC. Probably back further than that. Robert Parry seemed like the only reporter in the world who bravely spoke the plain truth no matter how ugly and it made sense. He backed up his work with meticulous research and findings which always the heart of his journalism.
I believe he represented the apex of investigative journalism which spanned many decades. Journalists were always placed under extreme pressures to get their stories straight and their facts airtight. Investigative journalists hoping to expose government wrongdoing faced enormous challenges from the editors desk as did the editors who would surely face scrutiny looking for any loose end to poke holes in the story.
Back then the MSM would run these well documented and researched stories. No more.
What was once the grindstone where only the toughest reporters driven to uncover the real story made the front page. Now they are nowhere to be found.
Instead a 100% fake media so uniform in its complete abdication of any notion of truthful reporting tells us nothing but lies 24/7. This includes what they do not want to talk about which are their many lies of omission.
There is a very simple economic reason for all of this “evolution”. It closely mirrors the evolution of the internet and the rise of “free” information and news. You see, once upon a time people paid for newspapers so there was an interest by the newspaper publishers to publish stories which appealed to the subscribers. More important they could justify to their bosses that publishing stories which catered to the interests of subscribers was important for the bottom line.
The thing which was severed by the internet was the subscriber model and companies continue to struggle to discover a plan that will work where people fork over their money for information they can easily get for free elsewhere.
This leaves the internet providers in a bind since their paying subscribers just left the building. Where to get the revenue to run the business?
Advertisements! Money flowing in from corporations! So who’s interests do we expect the MSM to serve?
Sorry folks it’s basic economics and unless you are willing to pay for information chances are it will be beneficial for somebody other than you.
Ray, I share the concerns of others about you being reinjured yesterday. I hope you recover soon. I salute your courage.
I watched the hearing live. I thought it remarkable that no witnesses were called that oppose Haspel’s nomination. In fact no witnesses at all other than Haspel herself and there was only a single round of questions by Senators. Which all indicates strongly that the Committee was not interested in getting at the truth; it was just a show. Certainly there were enough serious issues with Haspel that several weeks of hearings would have been justified.
If she had been accused of inappropriate flirting at an office holiday party they would have had a week of hearings and multiple panels of witnesses.
“Haspel does not look like someone who would be associated with torture.” Please see Hannah Arendt, “Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil”…”The trouble with Eichmann was precisely that so many were like him, and that the many were neither perverted nor sadistic, that they were, and still are, terribly and terrifyingly normal. From the viewpoint of our legal institutions and of our moral standards of judgment, this normality was much more terrifying than all the atrocities put together, for it implied — as had been said at Nuremberg over and over again by the defendants and their counsels — that this new type of criminal, who is in actual fact hostis generis humani, commits his crimes under circumstances that make it well-nigh impossible for him to know or to feel that he is doing wrong.”
Jim Faris, you haven’t quite gotten Hannah Arendt’s point.
It’s not that these monsters are not perverse and sadistic, it’s that
this sadism and perversion is part of a “Bureaucracy” that “Normalizes”
EVIL. Like the NAZI Bureaucracy and the CIA Bureaucracy.
That’s why Torture was called “Enhanced Interrogation”, and Eichmann
was an “Efficient Administrator”. It’s this Bureaucratic Language that
obfuscates the HORRIBLE REALITY , and the GINA HASPELS and
ADOLF EICHMANNS OF THE WORLD DO THEIR JOBS EFFICIENTLY
and, as in GINA’s case, EVEN ENTHUSIASTICALLY, BECAUSE THEY ARE
“PATRIOTS” WHO ARE “SERVING THEIR COUNTRY”. BLAH BLAH BLAH.
NO, THEY”RE NOT FOAMING AT THE MOUTH OUT OF CONTROL,
THEY ARE IN CONTROL, AS EFFICIENT BUREAUCRATS ARE,
AND HANNAH ARENDT SAW THIS AS “THE BANALITY OF EVIL”
Please stop making hysterical posts in capital letters.
No one takes you seriously when you scream.
No one likes hysteria. Stop, think, and speak calmly.
You nailed it! This is what psychologists call DID/dissociated identity disorder. Normal-appearing people can have a “part” implanted in their mind that can be “called out by the right person”; the “part” has been programmed to take control of the entire mind and to obey without question.
She is what most in USA call a good American girl.
She was allowed to do that in whichever way she wanted to do by Americans.
Her enjoyment of job was just a perk.
Really???
Thank you for providing such a persuasive argument, with such details and support.
I would be so fascinated to follow you around to witness the “modern day Socrates”.
“The ham roast is b.s.”, this traffic is b.s.”, “this porn clip is not b.s.”, I can just imagine it now.
Joe maybe there was a disconnect between the article and the photo of her that you ran. You said she looks like “a kindly grade-school teacher” but the photo looks like a scary sicko.
Or maybe, revenge of the geeks?
The CIA destroyed the interrogation videos and later “disappeared” the Congressional Report on CIA violations conducted in those years. A full coverup of the crime, and Haspel’s contribution to that should disqualify her during these hearings. But it won’t happen because most in Congress are members of the national security club. Some sort of renewed Church Committee will also not happen because there are nowhere near the numbers of Congressional members whose loyalty to the Constitution takes precedence over their loyalty to the national security club to jump start such a process or even expect any cooperation. The national security establishment is effectively above the law and has been, arguably, since the Iran-Contra hearings.
I believe that Haspel’s destruction of the tapes is actually more disqualifying for government service than even the actual torture. While torture is a crime against humanity, destroying such vital evidence is a crime against the very workings of government itself, and so must be anathema unless the U.S. wants to surrender to chaos.
“Surrender to chaos” how would you know when it happened?
As I remember it was Obama who disappeared the Senate Committee report. Let’s face it. We no longer have a democracy or a Constitutional government. The present government is totally illegitimate and will never allow itself to be reformed. Violent revolution would certainly be justified but it would lose. The only way forward I can see is to build alternative institutions and ignore or evade the present government as much as possible.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that our government needs a serious revamping, although I must insist on adding that we Americans get ourselves a new MSM. If we Americans were to have an honest multi-sided reporting media, then at least the truth could maybe appear through the fog of propaganda. Outside of the crooks running our government, we have careerist reporters who dare not go to where the truth is to be found. If it’s true, that the truth will set you free, then we Americans should look forward to many more years of being held captive by their lies.
As long as money has all the power, nothing will change for the better. Money corrupts as we can clearly see. Our government is like most governments, bought and paid for. In truth, I can see nothing changing until we have a different viewpoint toward life. As our world changes due to our activities, we will be forced to change in order to survive. The only hope that I can see is nature and the coming changes that it brings our habitat.
I agree that we need to build alternative institutions. I think the idea that the US has been a democracy is actually an illusion. Thomas Picketty got my attention when he wrote that the US has always been an oligarchy. I started reading the Founding Fathers and learned he was, of course, correct. Those in power have always feared democracy —- “mob” rule. The US has always been a hierarchy (rule of the sacred/sacred rule) maintained by a combination of religious and patriotic mind control and force charading as democracy.
I think they have been above the law since Nov.22nd 1963.
3 cheers for Ray for standing up ….
https://billmoyers.com/story/trump-russia-timeline/
(compare and contrast)
The people of voting district of R Burr in NC should next time take actions to declassify him as their representative for voting Haspel as the CIA Director and BDS all those who provide monetary stipends for his reelection. ELECT a NEW Representative who cares for the population and not a PUPPET of the Establishment.
We were thinking about going to NC during our vacation, but after reading about Burr may not. This reminded me of the “Moral Monday” protests in NC that Moyers reported on several years ago. Such a contrast of Ashville and some of the Triangle, vs the sick republicans that gather in the capitol.
This display of outrage about Gina Haspel’s nomination as CIA director is missing the point: The outrage should be about THE REAL ROLE of the CIA in the world (as an agent of the US plutocratic government) not about „the moral compass“ of one person. (One has to wonder about the „moral compass“ of all Americans who work(ed) for the CIA, including „good“ people like Ray McGovern or John Kiriakou; Why on earth did they join this criminal, devious, anti-democratic organisation? Were they just incredibly naive?)
The underlying psychological problem is self-delusion & cognitive dissonance:
„Human rights is the soul of US-foreign policy“ (President Carter, December 1978)
America presents itself to the world as a moral force (even as the highest moral authority, pontificating about democracy and human rights and punishing incompliant governments) but in reality it is a brutal, power-hungry hegemon which destroys other nations if they refuse to integrate themselves in a US-dominated „world-order“. (See the Nobel-Prize address of Harold Pinter: „..a brilliant act of hypnosis“)
Remember what Senator Feinstein said when the „Torture report“ was released in 2014?
“It shows that the CIA’s actions a decade ago are A STAIN on our values and on our history.
“The release of this 500-page summary of our report cannot remove that stain, but it can and does say to our people, and the world, that America is big enough to admit when it’s wrong and confident enough to learn from its MISTAKES. Releasing this report is an important step to restore our values and show the world that we are in fact A JUST AND LAWFUL SOCIETY.”
The CIA’s secret prisons, their torture-programs and other unspeakable crimes are neither just „a stain“ nor a „mistake“ they show what American power really has been: RUTHLESS, INHUMANE AND CRUEL. To seemingly justify these atrocities, a morally impenetrable shield was invented: „National Security“and a monstrous enemy had to be fabricated to create a constant state of fear (the USSR („communism“) then, „islamic terrorism“ since 9/11).
FABRICATING CRIMINALS & TERRORISTS
„Chemical and biological agents were to be studied … to develop means FOR THE CONTROL OF ACTIVITIES AND MENTAL CAPACITIES of individuals whether willing or not…, investigate the development of a chemical material (which causes a reversible aberrant mental state) to potentially aid in discrediting individuals, eliciting information and implanting suggestions and other forms of mental control …(113)
„The nature and extent of the programs were closely held secrets … it was deemend imperative that these programs be concealed from the American people: „the knowledge that the Agency is engaging in unethical and illicit activities would have serious repercussions in political and diplomatic circles…“(Inspector General/CIA; 106)
Source: Project MK ULTRA- The CIA’s program of research in BEHAVOURIAL MODIFICATION (Joint hearing before the Select Committee on intelligence … August 3, 1977)
Fast-forward to December 2014: Publication of a heavily redacted Senate torture report
(The report’s complete demolition of the rationale for the torture programme raises an obvious)
QUESTION: If the CIA knew that it was not really getting information that would help prevent terrorist attacks, WHY DID THE PROGRAMME CONTINUE until 2008?
ANSWER: The public extract from the report confirms that the CIA conducted experiments based on the work of Professor Martin Seligman (theory of “learned helplessness”). They were NOT INTENDED to obtain a confession or information, but to INCULCATE A NARRATIVE OR BEHAVIOR IN THE SUBJECTS.“
Source: http://www.voltairenet.org/article186204.html
John Kiriakou became a „hero“ when he „revealed“ the CIA-torture and went to prison for it (I hear him every day on „Loud & Clear“) but to this day he has not figured out WHAT THE REAL PURPOSE of these cruel and inhumane methods has been:
THE WEAPONIZATION OF THE HUMAN PSYCHE (from MKULTRA/ARTICHOKE to various “black sites” and “Gitmo/Camp Zero”)
THIS is the real scandal. Not “bloody” Gina (she is just the embodiment of what the CIA really stands for…)
http://law.shu.edu/policy-research/upload/guantanamo-americas-battle-lab-january-2015.pdf
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-role-of-911-in-justifying-torture-and-war-the-criminalization-of-the-us-state-apparatus-senate-report-on-cia-torture-is-a-whitewash/5419222
• https://s3.amazonaws.com/PHR_Reports/Experiments_in_Torture.pdf
• http://www.wanttoknow.info/bluebird10pg
• https://www.wanttoknow.info/mind_control/cia_mind_control_experiments_sex_abuse
Thanks for this observation Cassandra. The meteoric rise of nutcase shootings, stabbings, and vehicle attacks on pedestrians has a root somewhere. Those of us who are old enough remember a time when such things were unheard of and even unimaginable: they defy everything we think we know about human nature. Now they are endemic—a near-weekly occurrence. How did that happen? Are people really that angry or is it something else?
The problem isn’t “too many guns”. The problem is that some people are inexplicably losing their minds and mass-murdering people they don’t even know. Something extremely dark and unnatural is going on. Ordinary people aren’t as bad as that, not unless they’ve been tampered with.
Mr. Lauria isn’t letting my comments through these days. Maybe he’ll let this one stand.
I will add:
Police and security services have been tampered with too. I hear they get their training in Israel these days. All of them act like thugs their own mothers wouldn’t recognize.
I am horrified by what happened to Ray. Orwell’s “boot smashing a human face” comes to mind. All of us are one misstep away from being head-slammed and tasered. The Torture State thinks brutalizing a retired intelligence professional for the simple act of speaking out of turn—at a hearing about torture—is normal and appropriate.
Ray, I hope you are ok.
I agree with your observation that we are all just one misstep away…..
Seniors used to be valued and treated with respect. Not any more.
Not even “white male” seniors—professionals who once had respected jobs in government with high security clearance, and are now well-known writers. Not even them.
@ “One has to wonder about the „moral compass“ of all Americans who work(ed) for the CIA, including „good“ people like Ray McGovern or John Kiriakou; Why on earth did they join this criminal, devious, anti-democratic organisation? Were they just incredibly naive?”
We need to remember that the CIA had two arms, intelligence-gathering and clandestine operations. That division was blurred recently, with the two functions being merged into teams. But to me the intelligence-gathering is not in the same class of reprehensibility as the operations the CIA has conducted.
The problem Paul is, despite the conditioning of the American people, both arms of the CIA are in place to protect the interests of corporations and Wall street banks, and always has been.
Compartmentalization kept everyone except those at the top of the hierarchy from knowing what was under the mask of the agency. Dulles brothers created a real witches brew. Its taken a long time to integrate by getting enough documentation for the ugly truth to surface. Its rather like a cult. Good people never “join a cult”; they are deceived/manipulated into them. Those most likely to get sucked into cults are optimists who want to do good for the rest of humanity; the psychopaths are the ones at the top of the hierarchy —- not below.
Haspel should be instantly disqualified and arrested. The Capitol police and the Committee should all apologize as they drop all charges.
In the meantime:
Not one Senator on the Committee will say torture. Why? Because if they do, they’ll be seen as weak on “terrorism” and lose their seat?
Haspel says destroying the torture tapes wasn’t illegal. Not one attorney Senator publically confronts Haspel on this. Why?
John Kiriakou did the right thing and publically disclosed torture. How come Haspel did nothing to stop him from being prosecuted under the Espionage Act? One reason is because politicians never badmouth former Presidents in public? That’s considered “disrespectful”?
No one asks Haspel, did you enjoy watching detainees being tortured? You did nothing to stop it. So you must have.
How many Democrats will vote to confirm her because winning the midterms comes first. Self preservation of your money and power comes first.
If this is true,it’s terrible state of affairs this country is in! We need another Church commission!
It’s true https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/994319286972964868
What happened in the Senate Intelligence Committee hearing yesterday was an outrage, and is not something that will be forgotten.
There are 7.4 billion people in the world. I wonder if Richard Burr and his apparatchiks, or Haspel and her CIA colleagues in crime are able to visualize what could happen to them – in both judicial and extrajudicial ways- if they traveled abroad.
Evil is borderless.
https://twitter.com/fullspecdomino/status/994632591193133056
Is is not newsorthy that a seventy something year old ex-CIA analyst, who gave daily briefings to more than three Presidents, was clubbed and dragged out by security during Haspel’s Senate Confirmation Hearing when he tried to ask a question I think that is newsworthy. How come the media has kept it secret?
The lack of any traditional media recognition is disgraceful. What has happened to to us since Vietnam is disturbing. Perhaps the transition from citizen soldiers to professional (mercenary) soldiers is part of the problem.
I think it definitely is!
Enantiadromia. The poison you inflict will find you.
https://twitter.com/fullspecdomino/status/994626853079011333
If I was an american ( thank God I am not) my biggest fear is that these torturers are circulating within society. Many I would assume look as harmless as ” Bloody Gina”). Who knows when their particular skill set will be used to bring terror into american society, because the US is becoming more totalitarian every day. Just like the Roman Catholic church and the Inquisition which was conducted by supposedly peace loving and God fearing priests. ( Wolves in sheeps clothing) Giving all the appearance of gentle souls that would not harm a fly. As the old saying goes ” The true face of the tyrant is revealed in secret.” Just like Bloody Gina. Americans do not only have to fear, fear itself. They have to fear these monsters running around free in their country.
I doubt that torture will be stopped by the CIA and other such groups similar in the US. Only that which has been ‘seen’ will be objected to and all that is below sight level will not be noticed.
The ends justify the means for these people. They are unaware that they are now “the bad guys”.
Yep. Ayep. Yessir.
Raymond Davis. The CIA fella who killed three pakistanis in the street. Then, was bought out of jail by his good ole Uncle Sam.
A few months later ole Ray had his parking spot snaked at a coffee shop in colorado. So, he beat the shit out of the offending parker in front of the fellow’s two children. Noice.
IF the authority, in this case deranged Uncle Sam, can kill without justification (extra-judicial assasination) then why wouldn’t Joe sixpack opt for the “bullet to the brain” solution to his mundane local problems?
And obtuse dissidents like myself try to overcome the self-censor survival instinct to “speak the truth and speak it loudly!”–then hope it falls on the right ears or is lost in the noise.
Ray ain’t skeered.
Absolutely awful . And the USA will criticize other countries for bad treament givem to people they arraign? This is absolutely appalling.
I hope Ray McGovern has been released and taken care of.
It is all perfectly consistent with the background of the CIA, which David Talbot referred to as the “steel fist” of Deep State. It’s been that way since the Dulles boys, as you point out. It was that way with the assassinations of both Kennedys and King. That mindset was ushered directly into the Oval Office by the elegant looking Bush and never gave up control from then until now. It had a bit of a scare when renegade Trump defeated its chosen candidate, Hillary, but they seem to have whipped him back in line.
As for nice looking torturers and killers, I was seated in the front row of a bus on a 3-hour trip in Europe a few weeks ago when a quite out-of-place, elegant, very attractive lady was directed to sit next to me. She had that American gym-out-of-season-tanned”. She admitted to living in northern VA, then to working in DC, and finally to working for the U.S. Army as the liason between the Pentagon and NATO for Special Ops, i.e. assassinations and such. She said she kept trying to retire, but the killers she worked for kept calling her back, no doubt at very high private counseling pay rates. She was going to meet someone in a capitol city who she had worked with for years, but never met. Ah, death in the abstract. She asked my name as the bus docked. I declined to give it to her. And I had known better than to ask hers. If she worked in anything else, I would have asked her out since we are both single.
So nobody who knows what the CIA & Co. is about would be fooled by the nice teacher-looking killer who now wants to run the CIA.
Disgusting and disgraceful display of our police state. Thanks for your courage Ray and take care. You are a great role model for the rest of us.
Whilst the US judicial system may not hold Haspel to account, she should be wary about travelling aboard as torture falls under universal jurisdiction.
http://viewsandstories.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/defenders-of-human-rights.html
Here is the complete video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE1hT0koseg
The RT version is sanitized.
Well, she isn’t called “Bloody Gina” for nothing by those who know her. And I don’t recall where I read this, but the statement was, “She’s not someone you’d invite out for a beer.” Also, Ray McGovern is too old that four police officers can’t handle him without having to put him onto the ground.
The fact is that the Congress is afraid of the CIA, as have been some of our presidents.
It’s important to note that when other CIA officers refer to Haspel as “Bloody Gina,” they mean it as a complement, not an insult. What bothers me most is that the majority of Americans seem barely concerned with the Haspel appointment. They have become so indifferent and apathetic that almost anything is now acceptable, as long as it does not interfere with their sports and reality TV watching. Anything, that is, except Democrats caught up in the #metoo tornado. Those men are pressured into resigning immediately, but a torturer-in-chief at the CIA does not stir the same sort of outrage. Why is this???
Good question!
Congress is afraid of the CIA, because, in the finest tradition of J Edgar and Joe McCarty, they have files with every scrap of dirt in every person’s history and certainly use it frequently. The last President who was without devastating dirt was Eisenhower. I suspect they could also blackmail 99% of those in Congress, too.
yes.
blackmail and extortion make the world go ’round.
When it was explained that Ray had a dislocated shoulder, I understood the grimace of pain in the accompanying photograph. I dislocated my shoulder some years ago and was taken in agony by ambulance to the Emergency in our local hospital. Later had to have surgery on it – more pain, long rehab. Too many cops take sadistic pleasure in their work.
“You have acted morally, ethically and legally over a distinguished 30-year career.” Excellent statement on the part of Sen Burr; using “Bloody Gena” as his definition of those qualities couldn’t better describe the ethics of the Republican Party. Sort of like describing Trump as the paragon of virtue.
Torture is a bi-partisan frisson for wargasms. Obama condoned torture with his “look forward, not backward” policy. He refused to act against torturers, he refused to look into ‘black sites’, he refused to bring charges against those who broke the law by destroying incriminating CIA tapes and records of torture. So, as in so many other regards, he normalized torture and ‘enhanced interrogation’, despite the prevailing law of the land and despite the U.S. having signed international treaties to outlaw torture and to impartially prosecute offenders regardless of excuses.
So much for the higher standards one would expect from a ‘constitutional law professor’…
Obama, like Hillary, were put in place by Deep State and thereafter, completely controlled. She’d been there since Bill. I would think that Obama was recruited to represent America’s blacks. Once he was put in front of the real or manufactured CIA documentations , for example, a birth certificate, his pride in representing Afro-America couldn’t let him look like he was a phony – so he complied and is being richly rewarded for it, as he was promised.
I am starting to think US police are trained to make an arrestee look like he is resisting. First one shoves the victim around which makes the partner cop feel like there is resistance; then he shoves the person back toward the other cop. Sort of like ping pong. Then for extra drama they throw the person on the floor, frequently injuring him, which is totally unnecessary. After all those theatrics they can charge the person with resisting; where as in reality it was the police doing all the violent action.
This is total brutality, intimidation and unprofessional. The message is that if you want to speak out we’re going to rough you up and charge you with resisting our roughing you up. Catch 22 comes alive in the 21st century. Ray is 78, these big brave cops should be ashamed of themselves. I hope he has good lawyers. I understand he sued GWU for being roughed up at the Hillary “human rights” lecture.
“I am starting to think US police are trained to make an arrestee look like he is resisting.”
Not really; they only need a sense of total impunity. When I was in the Military Police, our company commander mused in a staff meeting that the quite numerous boot camp trainees who were returned to the Fort Jackson police station by the Columbia, SC police, after having received beat-downs following charges of “resisting arrest”, could not have all been behaving as charged.
Thank you for sharing and explaining the theater at Ray’s expense!! I was confused about what exactly was happening. As you explain it, it is right out of the psychopathy playbook. Hit someone on the head and when they get a bump on the head blame them for having the bump…..
I take Ms. Haspel at her word. If enhanced interrogation techniques seem like they might be useful in any other circumstances, the CIA will NOT torture in the future. I am sure it will be outsourced to somebody else’s secret police, or to a private contractor.
Well, we’ve seen it being outsourced to the Capitol police…
Is this what is happening today?
————————————
When Gangsters Are In Control
When gangsters are in control, endless wars slaughter millions of souls
And countries are destroyed by the hit men of the gangster ghouls
The unethical money changers finance their dirty depredations
And corporate cannibals profit from the bloody confrontations
Government by gangsters is now “the rule of law”
And “justice” is in the hands of criminals and outlaws
The language is twisted and debased
To suit these evil demons of the “human race”
Fancy titles and Houses of ill repute
Is where these villains consort and debut
Making “laws” to screw the masses
Yet, people continue to vote for these asses
If there really was “law and order”
These gangsters would be charged with genocide and murder
Instead these war criminals parade on the world stage
When they should be in a big enormous prison cage
They sell arms and weapons to bloody head choppers
They don’t know the meaning of improper
Grovelling and saluting financiers of terrorism
They are in bed with the dictators of barbarism
Such is the sick state of the world today
And much, more could be said, of the gangsters’ way
Evidence abounds of these criminals roles
That’s why we know gangsters are in control…
[more info at link below]
http://graysinfo.blogspot.ca/2017/01/when-gangsters-are-in-control.html
Seeing how John Kiriakou was treated, and now Ray, it should be clear to us to what our government has become.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/05/10/the-banality-of-gina-haspel/
Yes, Joe – the hand writing is on the wall. Dystopia rears it’s ugly face with this brutal treatment of 78 yr.old Ray McGovern.
NOW must we raise our voices in OUTRAGE against this display of Authoritarian bullying !
The sad part is, is that 2/3rd’s of our country’s population believe torture is the correct way to interrogate suspected terrorist. It’s bad enough there is no trail, or legal course of action, but then we torture these captives as if we had a right to. Amazingly this is accomplished by a nation which calls itself Christian. Here again Ray McGovern shows integrity by his rebelling against this evil establishment, all based on Ray’s love of Jesus. We Americans really do need to go to the mountain, and not only for us to figure out on how to conduct ourselves while at war, but we need to hang our heads in reverence to the sins we have committed.
I didn’t necessarily mean to go down the religious road, but all in all it seemed befitting. Take care Facetious. Joe
Ah yes, don’t forget the good ‘Christians’ who tortured reported ‘witches’ in the New England colonies and, of course, there were the good ‘Christians’ who tortured so called heretics in the Inquisitions in the name of God. Those who cry ‘Christian’ the loudest today are the most corrupt; real Christians go about their work quietly and with human compassion.
JM — “real Christians go about their work quietly and with human compassion.”
This is Ray McGoverns’ history – seek his biography, JM.
The now government under Trump is much more like the Roman Centurions that maliciously crucified Jesus Christ at the behest of Jewish Government & Religious Authorities. (The Talmudists).
Good Christians like good Americans do exist, but due to their counter rival end times nutcase Christians, it’s hard to see the forest through the trees.
In a country where moral conscience is in jeopardy you would think that our fabulous MSM would have had Ray McGovern on their infotainment talk shows for Ray’s opinion on how he was roughed up, and why Ray stood up to protest Haspel’s confirmation hearing. I know the corporate media recognized Ray, but that doesn’t matter much when their truth is but a lie. As uneventful as Ray’s injection from the hearing room was for most Americans, this should be a day to remember for all, that when a retired CIA officer stood up for what’s right he was roughly thrown out of the room full of senators as this is the Now America short term thinking. No time for self reflection, because we are the exceptional and indispensable rulers of the world.
More Americans approve torture because of the TV show 24 than because of the Bible.
What field officer would accept a tortured detainee’s word, taken under the extremes of duress, as real fact? So knowing this, then what other reason would there be to take prisoners and torture them? The answer is a simple one, because the implementation of torture never was to receive what’s needed for intelligence information, in as much as the torture is used to extract coerced narratives that only support the lies the torturer wanted the accused to say. This torture depravity isn’t rocket science, as much as it is Inquisition 1.0, and then we call ourselves civilized.
And yes Americans have watched to much TV, and relied to heavily on their politicians likewise. America needs a whole new government all the way from the local zoning ordinance official to the Senate and the President, would be where America needs replacements in the most desperate of ways. Instead we have the critters in the DC Swamp who jump real high for Israel, and the MIC/Banksters who love the profits of death that many times over. All of this so a minority few may sit by and enjoy their marvelous view from their penthouses in the sky, while the rest of humanity suffers as a result of their success.
Ted, here’s a twist. A historical Jesus would have been a Zealot during the Jewish wars agaist Rome —- a brutal authoritarian warrior state —- and crucified for sedition. Rome actually crucified thousands of “rebels” during the war….. As a historian I think the real point of the Jesus story is……”Don’t challenge authority” and “if you do, this is what you get”. In a way, Ray’s recent experience is that Jesus….an object lesson for the rest of us.
I tried to reply to you Diana but my comment was removed. Apparently Mr. Lauria does not want me to refer to the New Testament. I disagree with your political characterization of Jesus, which is not supported by the text about him. His issues were moral and spiritual, not political or nationalist.
Ray McGovern had his shoulder dislocated when arrested/attacked at a David Patreaus (sp?) event where he said nothing, just attended it, similar result at a Hillary Clinton affair.
In comparison what is surprising is when he confronted Donald Rumsfeld about his lies leading to the Iraq war in a ‘Q & A’ part of the event (2006),over the loud rumbling of the crowd and Rumsfeld stopped him from being immediately removed.Most of the crowd was with Rumsfeld, applauding and cheering when he says he didn’t lie then went on to tell some more lies.
Of all people Donald Rumsfeld is the one that had Ray McGovern treated with some respect ? Ray was still removed but he did get to ask questions and follow up with others replies, it didn’t last long app 4 minutes but a huge difference from the other events, especially yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1FTmuhynaw
The last leaflet, just one petal of that wilted rose endured.
Sophie died for nothing without flowers on her grave,
She advocated what could never win and caution couldn’t save:
Giddy masses frenzied with hysteria matured.
Victory was certain and the naysayers were slammed.
For glory and the fatherland, the truth was sacrificed.
The price to pay for triumph small, and willing youth enticed,
The Machtergreifung slogged apace, and prophesies be damned!
Righteousness and demagogues marched onward hand in hand,
Conviction blinded to the truth, consensus paved the way,
Sophie saw the future and it’s horrors with dismay:
She chose to scatter leaflets and expose the firebrand.
God knows what tortures she endured before she named the names?
Guilt once admitted offered proof that others were involved,
The torture was applied until poor Sophie’s will dissolved.
Beheading was the verdict levied for seditious claims.
Sophie’s words foretelling doom were petals of that rose,
The flower wilted but the words survived to vindicate.
The moral arc will have its way, though fools pontificate,
The demagogues’ delusions last until their fates foreclose.
But one surviving leaflet reproduced her memory,
Eternal words of caution that she tried in vain to sow.
A million copies scattered on the conquered dying foe,
If only they had listened to her screams and heard her plea…
Lies that promised glory were what prompted Sophie Scholl.
She tried in vain and never knew her prophesy would pass.
She spoke despite the gatherings that evil would amass,
A nation made of fools rejoiced and sold its very soul.
The petals number sixty million, Sophie’s words came true.
The whitest rose though sweet and pure could not convince the throng.
Once fooled the crowd abandons grace and can’t admit it’s wrong:
Apocalypse, despite the truth, is likely to ensue.
I know Ray did the right thing. I wonder if the “Machtergreifung” (consolidation of the regime) is too far along for it to matter. Sophie Scholl was beheaded on a guillotine in Munich, as I recall, in 1943. This poem is historically accurate to the best of my recollection. Thanks for listening.
Much Gratitude, FG Sanford, for sharing with us all the remembered stuff (histories) you have in your truly sincere heart and mind.
You are a treasure.
Thanks FG. Profound poetry…….makes us think……and feel………
Most of the inner circle members of the White Rose resistance movement, Hans Scholl, Alexander Schmorell, Christoph Probst, and Willi Graf, were medical students. In summer 1942, Scholl and Schmorell served for three months in the Wehrmacht medical corps on Eastern Front. Schmorell, who was born in Orenburg and raised by Russian nurses, spoke perfect Russian, which allowed him to have direct contact and communication with the local Russian population and their plight. This Russian insight proved invaluable during their time there, and he could convey to his fellow White Rose members what was not understood or even heard by other Germans coming from the Eastern front.
The medical students witnessed atrocities of the war on the battlefield, and learned about mass murder of civilian populations in Poland and Russia. Detachment gave way to the conviction that something had to be done. It was not enough to keep to oneself one’s beliefs, and ethical standards, but the time had come to act. The members of the White Rose were fully aware of the risks they incurred by their acts of resistance. Under Gestapo interrogation, Hans Scholl stated “I knew what I took upon myself and I was prepared to lose my life by so doing”.
After their experiences at the Eastern Front, Scholl and Schmorell felt compelled to take action. From end of June until mid of July 1942, they wrote the first four leaflets. Quoting extensively from the Bible, Aristotle and Novalis, as well as Goethe and Schiller, the iconic German poets, they appealed to what they considered the German intelligentsia, believing that these people would be easily convinced by the same arguments that also motivated the authors themselves.
Leaflets were left in telephone books in public phone booths, mailed to professors and students, and taken by courier to other universities for distribution. From 23 July to 30 October 1942, Graf, Scholl and Schmorell served again at the Russian front, and activities ceased until their return. In autumn 1942, Sophie Scholl discovered that her brother Hans was one of the authors of the pamphlets, and joined the group. Shortly after, Willi Graf, and by the end of December 1942, University of Munich professor Kurt Huber became members of the White Rose.
From the Third Leaflet (1942):
“our present ‘state’ is the dictatorship of evil. ‘Oh, we’ve known that for a long time,’ I hear you object, ‘and it isn’t necessary to bring that to our attention again.’ But, I ask you, if you know that, why do you not bestir yourselves, why do you allow these men who are in power to rob you step by step, openly and in secret, of one domain of your rights after another, until one day nothing, nothing at all will be left but a mechanized state system presided over by criminals and drunks? Is your spirit already so crushed by abuse that you forget it is your right – or rather, your moral duty – to eliminate this system?
“But if a man no longer can summon the strength to demand his right, then it is absolutely certain that he will perish. We would deserve to be dispersed through the earth like dust before the wind if we do not muster our powers at this late hour and finally find the courage which up to now we have lacked. Do not hide your cowardice behind a cloak of expediency”
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/images/Leaflet3%20page1.JPG
In February 1943, not long after the surrender of the German 6th Army in the Battle of Stalingrad, the Scholls were arrested for distributing the sixth White Rose leaflet at the University of Munich. Probst was arrested soon after. The main Gestapo interrogator initially thought Sophie was innocent. However, after Hans had confessed, Sophie assumed full responsibility in an attempt to protect other members of the White Rose.
The Scholls and Probst stood trial before the Nazi Volksgerichtshof or “People’s Court” infamous for its unfair political trials, which more often than not ended with a death sentence. Found guilty of treason, the three were executed the same day by guillotine at Stadelheim Prison.
All three were noted for the courage with which they faced their deaths, particularly Sophie, who remained firm despite intense interrogation, and intimidation by “People’s Court” judge Roland Freisler during the trial. She replied: “You know as well as we do that the war is lost. Why are you so cowardly that you won’t admit it?” Immediately before Hans was executed, he cried out “Es lebe die Freiheit! – Long live freedom!”.
Very apropos to make the analogy with the White Rose, Abe. Here is a photo of Sophie: https://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Sophie_Scholl.jpg/220px-Sophie_Scholl.jpg&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl&h=360&w=220&tbnid=ARqZ7y-kNn-ALM:&tbnh=186&tbnw=113&usg=__PdMSLstsZBmmlOkhXcA-0zg1T9k%3D&vet=10ahUKEwjf6KOWwf3aAhWBCSwKHRmtClAQ_B0I6AEwEg..i&docid=ifSAnuzc0_Y3QM&itg=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf6KOWwf3aAhWBCSwKHRmtClAQ_B0I6AEwEg
In view of relatively recent history, there is no excuse for any of us to remain silent or inactive, The Nazi are not yet fully in control and the big war hasn’t started yet. There should have been a thousand (at least) with Ray. How many handcuffs do those cops have?
Machtergreifung means “seizure of power”.
For Nazis in Germany, Machtergreifung happened in January 1933.
In the United States, it happened in November 1963.
And for U.S./NATO-backed Nazis in Ukraine, it happened in February 2014.
The German term for what you are describing, F.G., is Gleichschaltung, variously translated as “co-ordination”, “synchronization”, and “bringing into line”.
Gleichschaltung is a process of successively establishing a system of control and coordination over all aspects of a society.
This process of transformation typically requires some catastrophic and catalyzing event.
And as we have seen in numerous past examples, it culminates in military campaigns.
In the present, all is not quiet on multiple fronts.
Yet another Drang nach Osten or “drive toward the East” is imminent, with all the attendant horrors
https://journal-neo.org/2018/05/09/on-the-eastern-front-poroshenko-loads-up/
Of course, all this “adds nothing”.
Yeah, you’re right…but machtergreifung has two downbeats and two upbeats. Gleichshaltung only has one upbeat. Sometimes, you gotta cheat a little bit.
One last word, FG,
Your rhyme schemes are incredibly
thoughtful,
Like a piano player
that studied both Brubeck and Monk
(Time Signature is Key)
Hey, take it easy…all these compliments could go to my head. I’m not a musician, but if I could get a do-over in life, I wouldn’t mind being Clifford Brown.
I’m reading the comments backwards, so I saw Abe’s comment before this. Yes, Sophie Scholl is and should be a haunting figure in all our minds. But I will keep asking this: Why was Ray alone — except for a couple of unnamed Code Pinkers who apparently were also arrested. Why not a hundred, a thousand? My excuse is being an ocean away, but I cannot say I would have been courageous enough to join Ray on the floor in handcuffs. Who among you would have had the guts, and if so why weren’t you there? Where were his fellow VIPS? I realize that Ray would not hae liked to broadcast his intention to do this, for various reasons, but there should be a way to get the word around. Or is it already so bad that we have to resort to leaflets like the Scholls?
Yes, I know. Any attempt to organize such demonstrations would be fought with all the power of the govt. So in that sense, yes, it is that bad. They will infiltrate us with agents provocateurs and sabotage us. They will shoot our leaders. But before we give up, like F.C. Sandford, remember Sophie — and look at her again, it helps (sorry but no way to embed links here):
https://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Sophie_Scholl.jpg/220px-Sophie_Scholl.jpg&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl&h=360&w=220&tbnid=ARqZ7y-kNn-ALM:&tbnh=186&tbnw=113&usg=__PdMSLstsZBmmlOkhXcA-0zg1T9k%3D&vet=10ahUKEwjf6KOWwf3aAhWBCSwKHRmtClAQ_B0I6AEwEg
The video is here: https://www.rt.com/usa/426282-mcgovern-protest-haspel-hearing/ and here is my comment:
This is abolutely appalling. My eyes fill with tears of rage seeing the frigging gestap* again mistreating a man who should be getting medals instead of being physically abused and deprived of his right to speak. That’s the first thing; the second is having to watch him do this all by himself. Why weren’t more people there? Two people brave enough to protest against a torturer being appointed CIA director? Two people? Did Ray and the unidentified woman have special credentials to get in? Even if that was the case, where were the crowds outside? Where were the other members of Ray’s VIPS (Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity)?
I’m going to google McGovern + Haspel now in the hope of finding that others share my outrage. I hope other readers will do the same and report here. This is the least we can do not only for Ray but for the cause he regularly puts his body on the line for, which is peace and moral integrity.
Just found this on The Hill, which presents Marco Rubio’s stupid tweet as more important than the protests, and links to a long NYT article that doesn’t even mention Ray’s name. There is a decent article in Zero Hedge, which reminds us that Ray is 78. There are some YouTube videos, which also appears on antiwar.com. There were apparently a couple of CodePink members protesting at the hearing as well, but it is not even report (as of now) on their website, which I find strange and suspicious.
My hat is off, once again, and my heart is with Ray McGovern, whose great courage I hope will be an inspiration to everyone, as he is to me. The question is not so much why was he in handcuffs on the floor with several policemen apparently determined to dislocate his shoulder (again), but why was he alone?
Wouldnt that be a sight if one of those security guards would have thrown down their hat and badge and shouted something in the sense of “I cant do that, I will not be a tool of a fascist regime”.
Too bad those guys dont have more courage and honor than the next best politician/official sitting there. Even though they have far less to lose.
On the other hand, if you would do that, you would be a hero instantly and the public would make sure you would end in poverty, especially in the age of Internet.
Yes, and it also would have been nice to have more of us there with Ray.
Why was he alone? Because of what was on those 92 destroyed tapes. It’s not about the torture. It’s about what was on the tapes. The “official story”, the “politically correct” version of the “truth” was at stake. Stop and think about it. Everybody knows the victims were tortured. That has no secrecy value now. What is it they want kept secret…and why can’t Americans confront that reality?
I think you misunderstood me. I’m talking about the other VIPS and any of the rest of the ca. 320-million population, of whom I would guess at least 50% agree with Ray. Obviously I don’t mean the scumbags who would be exposed if the tapes were published. They will stay in the holes where they belong, and that is where Bloody Gina should stay, too.
Good question!
It was easy to post the video on Facebook. We can all do that. We don’t have to wait for MSM.
Ray, thanks so much, for your ongoing efforts to expose a few of the moral and ethical ills within our government. Truly professional terrorists will respond to new and unrestrained torture techniques by compartmentalizing their network architectures in such a way so as to ensure that significant information will be kept from “field agents” who might be captured and interrogated. For every new problem posed by western “exceptional-ism” there’s always a solution.
The underlying suggestion seems to be that “total information awareness”, undercover agents, high tech gadgets used for surveillance, such as scanning for abnormal body temperatures, (thermal analysis, bomb sniffers and dogs, polygraphing, traffic camera’s, street signs that issue verbal warnings to passers-by not to commit some minor infraction, 3-D facial analysis to detect when a person is lying, all in concert, cannot, nip at the bud, global terrorism? I shudder to think what else will be conjured up, by the surveillance state apparatus, to keep us proles in obedient regimentation to “Big Brother”….In any case, citizens at large, won’t be any safer (with or without enhanced interrogation techniques) from the endless ingenuity and genius of the common foot soldier (in uniform or not)
When will the powers-that-be understand the depth and meaning of the phrase; “no justice, no peace”
Bloody Gina Haspel did not look like your average American when she was being questioned by Senator Angus King. You could see the anger in her face and tense body when being asked about torture. I think it is likely her anger came from the idea that anyone had the nerve to question her, a great American patriot. Seeing that it is easy to imagine her ordering one of her CIA contractor flunkies to pull out all of some suspect’s fingernails. She is not Dr. Mengele, but she takes orders from her superiors, and that includes unnecessarily personally participating in torture. nd what is encouraged in such a person when her dirty deeds are approved of by promoting her?
If we cannot keep this person from gaining even more power we are heading further down the horrific road that “W” and Cheney started taking us. McCain is not very good, but he did say that torture is not about whom they are, but who we are. If Haspel is made CIA chief, the Republicans, as usual, and certain establishment Democrats, are acquiescing to our country becoming just another place that accepts (for now anyway) diseased leaders.
Psychopaths are useful to the intelligence services, because they will do things which others would find distasteful and upsetting.
Maybe Bloody Gina was thinking about what she’d like to do with the questioner, if she could just get him all to herself somewhere.
Torture is used by gangsters and other underworld villains. Therefore, I ask based on the evidence against governments: “Are We Seeing Government by Gangsters”?
http://graysinfo.blogspot.ca/2018/03/are-we-seeing-government-by-gangsters.html
If any readers of this comment have contacts with the Senate intelligence committee, please consider submitting the proposed “Questions for the Record” to them for inclusion in the hearing record for Gina Haspel’s nomination.
Gina Haspel is a manifestation of the “broken covenant” of the CSRA (Civil Service Reform act of 1978), see http://www.broken-covenant.org. I attribute 9/11, going to war in Iraq for false reasons, American torture, and much else that has befallen and besets America in past 40 years to the “broken covenant” of the CSRA. The heart of the CSRA – the merit principles, while excellent in scope, have largely failed to be implemented, because of the law-breaking in US Office of Special Counsel OSC and US Merit Systems Protection Board MSPB I have spent so many years trying to expose and end.
I hope Mr. Wyden poses the proposed “questions for the record” to Ms. Haspel. Because CIA does not “embody” the merit principles, contrary to law, her “moral compass” was overly influenced by her self-interest in professional standing and economic security when faced with moral choices she would not have faced, had CIA “embodied” the merit principles.
(For a 7 page analysis of why the management culture in federal agencies, including CIA and other IC agencies, fails to comply with the statutory requirement to “embody” the merit principles and be free of prohibited personnel practices (PPPs), please see http://whsknox.blogs.com/2018/3-legged-stool-regulation-model-5-4-18.pdf.)
1. Ms. Haspel, do you agree that your primary statutory duty to CIA employees is to “take any action….necessary” so that CIA’s workplace and management culture “embodies” the merit principles, per 5 USC section 2301(c)?
2. Ms. Haspel, do you agree that classified whistleblower disclosures made by CIA employees to the US Office of Special Counsel per 5 USC section 1213 and/or section 2302(b)(8)(B) are not only legal (i.e. the employee cannot be charged with violations of the Espionage Act) but also “protected” – the employee cannot be disciplined for making them?
3. Ms. Haspel, do you contend that CIA employee can effectively make whistleblower disclosures, including about classified information, that they receive a timely and objective resolution?
4. Ms. Haspel, do you contend that CIA employee are adequately protected from whistleblower reprisal and other types of prohibited personnel practices (PPPs)?
5. Ms. Haspel if you contend that CIA employees can effectively make whistleblower disclosures and/or are adequately protected from whistleblower reprisal and other types of PPPs, what is your objective basis for saying this? If you cannot point to an objective basis, then do you commit to “taking any action…necessary” to that there is an objective basis for you to claim that CIA’s management and workplace culture embodies the merit principles, including whistleblower disclosures receiving a timely and objective resolution and employees being adequately protected from whistleblower reprisal and other types of PPPs?
I have contacted my Senators (King and Collins), both on the Senate Intelligence Committee, suggesting that they appoint Ray McGovern rather than Haspel to run the CIA, apologize, and compensate Mr. McGovern.
Damn good idea!
I second that idea! Mike, however it begs the question, Ray is almost eighty years old, we’ll be needing younger and equally experienced retired, military Intel (DIA/Pentagon) to step up to the plate, show up at a public protest, add a few new pages to the opposition tirades, to broadcast what was falsely designated as secret or withheld on national security grounds, to open the eyes of our citizens, and cross a picket line or two….Again Ray, our thanks !
I think Chelsea Manning would be a good person that would fit that criteria, elmer…
Yes, but the calm perspective of age is best at the top, rather than hormones or needs.
Of course the older are not always wiser.
Well stated.
Give ’em hell Ray McGovern!
Article of interest at link below.
——————————————————
https://theintercept.com/2018/05/08/will-democrats-unite-to-block-trumps-torturer-gina-haspel-as-cia-chief-if-not-what-do-they-resist/
Ray McGovern deserves our praise for this courageous move to make public the travesty
“a hearing to put an alleged torturer in charge.” A new Church Committee is indeed “long overdue” to find whether the CIA serves the people or “the interests of its rulers” among the rich. Even its founder Truman decided that it was a mistake.
My condolences to Ray; I have had similar shoulder problems which lasted over a year.
The secret agencies have been elevated to an unconstitutional position of waging secret wars prohibited by the Constitution and unknown to the people. The executive branch must be cut down to administration of policy made by Congress; all branches must have internal checks and balances because the executive has too much power; NATO must be repudiated or made purely defensive; and the universal corruption of politicians, judges, and mass media must be ended by purges and constitutional amendments to restrict funding of elections and mass media to limited individual donations.
Totally Agree. Thank you Ray for all that you do… Please see the video at the link below. And, many thanks Sam F.
https://off-guardian.org/2018/05/10/watch-former-cia-analyst-ray-mcgovern-brutalized-by-police-at-haspel-confirmation/
whatever became of frank church, i wonder?
I lived in Idaho at the time. Church died soon after the 1976 hearings, of cancer.
By saying that the CIA won’t torture again is an admission that torture has taken place so where are the prosecutions. The international court could issue a worldwide arrest warrent even though these criminals aren’t signed to up to the ICC.
Yes, a case brought in the ICC, if there are such courageous persons among injured nations and among ICC judges, would dare the US to attack the Hague as it has threatened with an actual law. Either way it shows the world what the US has become.
Apparently the nickname for the ICC by some in Africa is “The International Caucasian Court'” as it is leaders in Africa that get prosecuted but never the western war criminals.
How true ,I won’t believe in the ICC until the day that leaders of Western countries(France, UK, US, Germany) get prosecuted, like Tony Blair, GWB, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Colin Powell, Obama to name just a FEW of the many of those guilty of ‘crimes against humanity’.
” Haspel is the face of America. ”
If America changed it’s name to the Hellfire Club.
“She not only looks harmless, but looks like she wants to help: perhaps to recommend a good gardener to hire or to spread democracy around the globe while upholding human rights wherever they are violated.”
That makes her sound like the world’s strictest librarian. Maybe Zubaydah’s books were overdue?
‘Trust us’, said the CIA, like they said to JFK.
Ray McGovern shows us what a real citizen does, by showing his deep concern for us all, and for the true values that make our lives livable and safe. He is acting in the long tradition of truth tellers like Gandhi, MLK, Mandela, the Berrigan brothers, and so many others. These spiritual heroes challenging the criminals in power are our real hope, not the sychophants serving the rich and powerful in congress. Those toadies will do as they are told by their billionaire sponsors.
Very true; hope lies in the courageous moral thinkers, never in the opportunist operatives.
Totally agree, thanks mike k…
That is so true, with his pension from 27 years in the CIA he could be leading an easy life, go fishing, travel, read,you name it, but his concerns are unselfish and the epitome of what the real definition of ‘patriotism’ is all about, fighting to make the truth known because without it there is no real freedom.
It is on RT where I get to see and hear him, not on our mainstream media, he will not be on ABC, NBC, CNN as a commentator nor the Russia Maddow Show on MSDNC.
The same goes for another RT show’s ‘on Contact” host Chris Hedges and other voices blocked from corporate media.
Take heart, Ray. You’re in good company (Thoreau, Ghandi, Dr. King, Rosa Parks, to name but a few.)
I only know that in my security training (I HATE the industry), there are two (basic) types of subject during an arrest. The compliant and non compliant. And the cooperative subject is NOT supposed to look like Ray McGovern in the above photo. I assume that Ray did not actively resist his arrest. If so, then there’s no way he should have ended up on the ground with his shoulder dislocated.
there is no USA any more it is a zionists colony….they get everything from massive tax breaks to massive extortion payments…
regarding mccain
A Christian Pastor’s Advice to John McCain as He Faces the Gates of Hell
“Senator, concern yourself not with whether or not Donald Trump attends your funeral. Concern yourself with Eternity in either the Kingdom of God, or in Hell.”
Senator, a good Lutheran pastor preaches Law and Gospel. Here’s your situation in terms of your earthly performance under God’s Law: In life, you killed and wounded scores of your shipmates on the USS Forrestal ‘Wet Starting’ your A-4 aircraft in a deliberate attempt at grandstanding. Your Admiral father covered that up, as he did Israel’s deliberate attack on the USS Liberty which killed and wounded scores of Americans.
You betrayed your POW colleagues in Hanoi, not under torture as is indicated by Empire Media, but for a guest room and morning coffee according to cell mates. I have interviewed several of them personally. Your real performance then would earn you the name Songbird. It is a name that has remained etched in the vivid memories of your comrades all these decades later. As in the USS Forrestal tragedy, you would evade a military tribunal and an inevitable court martial and dishonorable discharge due to your father’s power and influence in the inner sanctums of the US Navy elite and the covert assistance of the President of the United States.
You divorced your first wife when she was ill, to marry a rich woman who financed your political career. She obtained her money from her father, Jim Hensley, a bag man for the Meyer Lansky Israeli Crime Syndicate.
Well, that should be enough to get him through the gates, assuming Heaven a zionist operation to control goys.
Well said oddball! The real history of our “war hero”.
AMEN
I thought I have heard it all until Miss Haspel said “CIA Won’t Torture Again” Torture has been one of the CIA main staple since its inception. This woman cannot be trusted.
Moral compass at CIA reminds me the most striking scene in my high school physics. Our teacher was substituted by an intern who just graduated, and she was very enthusiastic about experiments. In one of them we made a coil of wire, and placed it next to a compass. After closing the circuit with a battery, according to the textbook the compass needly was supposed to turn. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tG9fY0WX3U
Alas, the needle did not read the textbook (they say I should turn, but where?) and instead it started to turn round and round; the girl-teacher exclaimed “Poor needle got totally confused!”.
“You are without a doubt the most qualified person the president could choose to lead the CIA and the most prepared nominee in the 70-year history of the agency”.
If true (which I see no reason to doubt) that should be sufficient grounds for indictment and probable imprisonment. Only a cynical, merciless, hardened criminal could meet those criteria.
Dear Tom: Miss Haspel does fit the bill as a cynical, merciless, and hardened criminal. That is the main reason she might be certified.
I wonder what her children have to say about her disciplinary style. Perhaps they disappeared in Thailand.
I hope Mr. McGovern is okay. He’s a very brave man to stand up and do what he did.
Even though Ms. Haspel looks like she could be the town librarian, to get to the position she is vying for she must be one heck of a monster, otherwise the Deep State wouldn’t have put her forward as a candidate.
As for John McCain, all I can say is it’s too bad the Vietnamese didn’t finish him off at the time! We’re supposed to believe this warmongering animal holds a special disdain for torture when he wouldn’t think twice about bombing some foreign city off the face of the map, killing thousands of men, women and children?
“None of this bodes well for the nation.” Unfortunately, this is nothing new. Just remember Hoover, Dulles, Mueller, Comey, assassinations, coups, false flags, Russiagate, Edward Snowden, Julian Assange…..it doesn’t skip a beat.
His time in the Hanoi Hilton still haunts him. If not for that personal experience, I have no doubt he’d be “all aboard”.
You’re so right. Just goes to show that most people have little empathy for others unless they, or someone close to them, are impacted. I wonder why that is.
Nancy, are you sure it is true that “most people” have no empathy….?
Lack of empathy is psychopathy and narcissism. “Most” of us are neither. “Most” people are empathic and have a conscience. Cui Bono? Who benefits if we are led to assume most do not have empathy and conscience???
I think what Nancy is referring to is that most people view television and news as something abstract. We are inundated with violence as “entertainment” to the point where people view it abstractly even when it’s news. Neil Postman of NYU speaks of this somewhat in his book “Amusing Ourselves to Death”. Unless the experience is personal and lived, people have learned to distance themselves emotionally. It is one of the ways that the war machine survives.
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty”.
– Thomas Jefferson (who would probably be in Guantanamo himself, were he alive today)
‘Haspel claimed to have a “strong moral compass”’.
A beastly American neologism, which essentially means that the person has no morality. Only a person with no sense of direction needs a compass to find her way around a familiar neighbourhood.
Exactly as any organization with a “department of ethics” believes that Ethics is a county next to Thuffolk, and any country with a “department of justice” has no justice.
I’ll remember that one, having seen related Massachusetts corruption mainly in Essex and Suffolk counties.
It appears that Thuffolk is consulting the department of Ethics.
Here’s another:
A Massachusetts governor, troubled by anger at his stand against gay rights, was consoled by his secretary.
“Well, some good news! You are now the third governor to have a city named after him!”
“Really? that is surprising.”
“Yes, we now have the cities of Everett, Gardner, and Athol!”
“I wonder if that’s what he saw when he said we needed to look ahead and not behind?”
Good advice regardless – because something is certainly gaining on us.
‘“I think you will find me to be a typical middle-class American,” she said in her opening statement’.
Probably true. meaning that she wouldn’t care if she saw a pile of dead bodies a thousand feet high – as long as they were “foreigners”.
Thank you Ray and Joe. I hope Ray didn’t get too roughed up. He’s getting a bit long in the tooth for wrestling.
The horror stories just seem to get worse and worse. Obama blew it big-time when he failed to prosecute the torturers and the liars that brought us the Iraq war. Instead he became just another “War-Criminal-in-Chief.” The rule of law is utterly dead. I wonder if that’s what he saw when he said we needed to look ahead and not behind?
Skip Scott – “The rule of law is utterly dead.” That line is really all you need to know.
I can’t recall a time when the rule of law was alive. at least not for the criminal in the white house.