RAY McGOVERN: Ex-FBI, CIA Officials Draw Withering Fire on Russiagate

The Deep State almost always wins. But if Attorney General Barr leans hard on Trump to unfetter investigators, all hell may break lose, says Ray McGovern.

By Ray McGovern
Special to Consortium News

As Congress arrives back into town and the House Judiciary and Intelligence Committees prepare to question ex-Special Prosecutor Robert Mueller on July 17, partisan lines are being drawn even more sharply, as Russias-gate blossoms into Deep-State-gate. On Sunday, a top Republican legislator, Rep. Peter King (R-NY) took the gloves off in an unusually acerbic public attack on former leaders of the FBI and CIA.

King told a radio audience: “There is no doubt to me there was severe, serious abuses that were carried out in the FBI and, I believe, top levels of the CIA against the President of the United States or, at that time, presidential candidate Donald Trump,” according to The Hill.

King, a senior congressman specializing in national security, twice chaired the House Homeland Security Committee and currently heads its Subcommittee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence. He also served for several years on the House Intelligence Committee.

He asserted:

“There was no legal basis at all for them to begin this investigation of his campaign – and the way they carried it forward, and the way information was leaked. … All of this is going to come out. It’s going to show the bias. It’s going to show the baselessness of the investigation … and I would say the same thing if this were done to Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders …It’s just wrong.”

The Long Island Republican added a well aimed swipe at what passes for the media today: “The media went along with this – actually, keeping this farcical, ridiculous thought going that the President of the United States… was somehow involved in a conspiracy with Russia against his own country.”

King: Lashes out.

According to King, the Justice Department’s review, ordered by Attorney General William Barr, would prove that former officials acted improperly. He was alluding to the investigation led by John Durham, U.S. Attorney in Connecticut. Sounds nice. But waiting for Durham to complete his investigation at a typically lawyerly pace would, I fear, be much like the experience of waiting for Mueller to finish his; that is, like waiting for Godot. What about now?

So Where is the IG Report on FISA?

That’s the big one. If Horowitz is able to speak freely about what he has learned, his report could lead to indictments of former CIA Director John Brennan, former FBI Director James Comey, former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe, former Deputy Attorneys General Sally Yates and Rod Rosenstein, and Dana Boente — Boente being the only signer of the relevant FISA applications still in office. (No, he has not been demoted to file clerk in the FBI library; at last report, he is FBI General Counsel!).

The DOJ inspector General’s investigation, launched in March 2018, has centered on whether the FBI and DOJ filing of four FISA applications and renewals beginning in October 2016 to surveil former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page amounted to abuse of the FISA process. (Fortunately for the IG, Obama’s top intelligence and law enforcement officials were so sure that Hillary Clinton would win that they did not do much to hide their tracks.)

The Washington Examiner reported last Tuesday, “The Justice Department inspector general’s investigation of potential abuse of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is complete, a Republican congressman said, though a report on its findings might not be released for a month.”  The report continued:

“House Judiciary Committee member John Ratcliffe (R, Texas) said Monday he’d met with DOJ watchdog Michael Horowitz last week about his FISA abuse report. In a media interview, Ratcliffe said they’d discussed the timing, but not the content of his report and Horowitz ‘related that his team’s investigative work is complete and they’re now in the process of drafting that report. Ratcliffe said he was doubtful that Horowitz’s report would be made available to the public or the Congress anytime soon. ‘He [Horowitz] did relay that as much as 20% of his report is going to include classified information, so that draft report will have to undergo a classification review at the FBI and at the Department of Justice,’ Ratcliffe said. ‘So, while I’m hopeful that we members of Congress might see it before the August recess, I’m not too certain about that.’”

Horowitz: Still waiting for his report.

Earlier, Horowitz had predicted that his report would be ready in May or June but there may, in fact, be good reason for some delay. Fox News reported Friday that “key witnesses sought for questioning by Justice Department Inspector General Michael E. Horowitz early in his investigation into alleged government surveillance abuse have come forward at the 11th hour.” According to Fox’s sources, at least one witness outside the Justice Department and FBI has started cooperating — a breakthrough that came after Durham was assigned to lead a separate investigation into the origins of the FBI’s 2016 Russia case that led to Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s probe.

“Classification,” however, has been one of the Deep State’s favorite tactics to stymie investigations — especially when the material in question yields serious embarrassment or reveals crimes. And the stakes this time are huge.

Judging by past precedent, Deep State intelligence and law enforcement officials will do all they can to use the “but-it’s-classified” excuse to avoid putting themselves and their former colleagues in legal jeopardy. (Though this would violate Obama’s executive order 13526, prohibiting classification of embarrassing or criminal information).

It is far from clear that DOJ IG Horowitz and Attorney General Barr will prevail in the end, even though President Trump has given Barr nominal authority to declassify as necessary. Why are the the stakes so extraordinarily high?

What Did Obama Know, and When Did He Know It?

Recall that in a Sept. 2, 2016 text message to the FBI’s then-deputy chief of counterintelligence Peter Strzok, his girlfriend and then-top legal adviser to Deputy FBI Director McCabe, Lisa Page, wrote that she was preparing talking points because the president “wants to know everything we’re doing.” [Emphasis added.] It does not seem likely that the Director of National Intelligence, DOJ, FBI, and CIA all kept President Obama in the dark about their FISA and other machinations — although it is possible they did so out of a desire to provide him with “plausible denial.”

It seems more likely that Obama’s closest intelligence confidant, Brennan, told him about the shenanigans with FISA, that Obama gave him approval (perhaps just tacit approval), and that Brennan used that to harness top intelligence and law enforcement officials behind the effort to defeat Trump and, later, to emasculate and, if possible, remove him.

Moreover, one should not rule out seeing in the coming months an “Obama-made-us-do-it” defense — whether grounded in fact or not — by Brennan and perhaps the rest of the gang. Brennan may even have a piece of paper recording the President’s “approval” for this or that — or could readily have his former subordinates prepare one that appears authentic.

Reining in Devin Nunes

That the Deep State retains formidable power can be seen in the repeated Lucy-holding-then-withdrawing-the-football-for-Charlie Brown treatment experienced by House Intelligence Committee Ranking Member, Devin Nunes (R-CA). On April 5, 2019, in the apparent belief he had a green light to go on the offensive, Nunes wrote that committee Republicans “will soon be submitting criminal referrals on numerous individuals involved … in the abuse of intelligence for political purposes. These people must be held to account to prevent similar abuses from occurring in the future.”

Nunes: Still waiting for his referrals. (Flickr)

On April 7, Nunes was even more specific, telling Fox News that he was preparing to send eight criminal referrals to the Department of Justice “this week,” concerning alleged misconduct during the Trump-Russia investigation, including leaks of “highly classified material” and conspiracies to lie to Congress and the FISA court. It seemed to be no-holds-barred for Nunes, who had begun to talk publicly about prison time for those who might be brought to trial.

Except for Fox, the corporate media ignored Nunes’s explosive comments. The media seemed smugly convinced that Nunes’s talk of “referrals” could be safely ignored — even though a new sheriff, Barr, had come to town. And sure enough, now, three months later, where are the criminal referrals?

There is ample evidence that President Trump is afraid to run afoul of the Deep State functionaries he inherited. And the Deep State almost always wins. But if Attorney General Barr leans hard on the president to unfetter Nunes, IG Horowitz, Durham and like-minded investigators, all hell may break lose, because the evidence against those who took serious liberties with the law is staring them all in the face.

Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. No fan of the current President, Ray has been trained to follow and analyze the facts, wherever they may lead. He spent 27 years as a CIA analyst, and prepared the President’s Daily Brief for three presidents. In retirement he co-founded Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

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107 comments for “RAY McGOVERN: Ex-FBI, CIA Officials Draw Withering Fire on Russiagate

    July 13, 2019 at 21:45

    Cogent article by the VERY well informed former CIA analyst (Ray McGovern).

    July 11, 2019 at 20:23

    I’m extremely doubtful about the finding that there were any violations in any FISA request. 99.9% of the time, the FISA court has approved requests routinely from various agencies in the national security state. This whole “outrage” appears to be more smoke and no fire originating from the right wing nut jobs , wherever they are.

  3. jmg
    July 11, 2019 at 18:17

    Ray McGovern wrote: “. . . executive order 13526, prohibiting classification of embarrassing or criminal information”.

    Indeed it says:

    “Sec. 1.7. Classification Prohibitions and Limitations. (a) In no case shall
    information be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, or fail
    to be declassified in order to:
    “(1) conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error;
    “(2) prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency; . . .”

    The President Executive Order 13526 | National Archives

    This for example means that Manning and Assange’s revelations such as the “Collateral Murder” war crime video couldn’t be classified, and therefore both whistleblower Chelsea Manning and investigative journalist Julian Assange must be released from prison.

  4. Lee D. Cary
    July 11, 2019 at 13:05
  5. July 11, 2019 at 08:32

    Superb article by Ray McGovern. Especially revealing was the information about Nunes and his intent send forward criminal referrals that were subsequently sidetracked.

  6. Bailey
    July 10, 2019 at 20:54

    The people who were involved with setting up Russia Gate tried to interfere with an election and throw it to Hillary. And when that didn’t work Comey released his conversations with Trump to a friend just so Mueller could be appointed. Why hasn’t Comey been charged for doing that by now? Of course Comey, Mueller and Rosenstein have a long history of covering up for the Clintons and anyone else involved with their shenanigans. This goes back to at least 2005 when Comey investigated their phony foundation.

    Ray wrote this article over a year ago and so far nothing has happened unless this is what he is discussing here.


    The FBI made up their excuse to start an investigation into Trumps campaign and Hillary used her party’s intelligence agencies to spy on her opponent. How is that not as serious as watergate? Of course Obama knew what was happening. No one would have dared do what they did without his permission.

    This false Russian nonsense has had some very serious side effects. One the debasing of our election system and the increasing censorship that has popped up everywhere resulting in alternative websites being basically censored which keeps people from reading the truth about what’s happening here and elsewhere. I want to see people held accountable for it. Oh yeah. The massive psyops has divided the country into people who buy into Russia Gate and those who don’t.

  7. Chris Brandt
    July 10, 2019 at 14:09

    As usual, Ray pursues truth “without fear or favor.” Peter King is a right-wing anti-immigrant (and therefore, these days, white-power) ranter, Devin Nunes is a sycophant, and Trump is a gawdawful nightmare who has been quietly eviscerating the US judiciary and stocking it with ideologues who will surely plague us well into the next half century.

    BUT – and it’s a huge but, which very few are willing to face – if we use underhanded, nasty methods to bring down our underhanded, nasty enemies, then guess what? It will be we who are underhanded and nasty. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so the ONLY safeguard against such corruption is complete openness and total refusal to use the enemies’ weapons against them. It’s harder that way, but it really is the only way, and few know that better than Ray.

    Thank you Ray McGovern!

  8. Casey Atchison
    July 10, 2019 at 11:42

    Good article.

  9. Nina Flannery
    July 10, 2019 at 08:25

    I’ve been missing Ray McGovern. So glad to see his opinions, as there are few one can trust.

  10. Patricia Ormsby
    July 10, 2019 at 01:30

    Dang! That is the most magnificent frown on King’s face I’ve seen in years! Hope for justice, but pressure needed.

  11. Taras77
    July 9, 2019 at 18:01

    So now we have another “offering” by a well known provider of absolute (fill in the blank):

    Isikov, who was a key contributer to the steele dossier garbage:


    • Bailey
      July 10, 2019 at 20:58

      Isokoff is not the only person who is writing new stuff about Russian interference and other nefarious things. My question is why now? Why is Russian propaganda back in the news now? Is there a story on the horizon that will debunk it once and for all or is there worse news out there that the PTB don’t want us to see?

      Stay tuned…

      • Seer
        July 10, 2019 at 23:18

        MIC needs to counter the aggressive “anti-war” positions by the Dem candidates for 2020 POTUS. To them, the MIC, it’s: Anybody but “Anti-War!”

  12. dean 1000
    July 9, 2019 at 16:12

    There was a coup attempt. It started during the election campaign and continued after the Election. Trump embarrassed the masters of the Universe in Washington before the entire world. Robert Muller was the Empire’s Darth Vader, he was to threaten Trump and his people until they turned. Now that Trump has turned at least 140º from his campaign agenda, Mueller could walk away.

    The Israelis and Saudis are the biggest beneficiaries of Trumps foreign policy.

    The coup plotters should be exposed and held legally accountable. The Trump voters and supporters are the only people who can move Trump to do it. Trump is surrounded by creatures of the Duopoly, including AG Barr. The intelligence agency appointees are also creatures of the Duopoly.
    Trump was a personal defeat for many democratic party operatives. They did everything the DNC and party rules were designed to do and still lost. The republican Intelligence operatives would have done something similar if the Repubs suffered such a heavy loss. Power corrupts republicans as much as it corrupts democrats.

    Three or four parties in the senate would mean intelligence, law enforcement, and court appointees would not owe their soul to one party or party faction. We are blessed with only 2 major parties b/c the duopoly co-opted part of the agenda of the old Populist party that posed such a threat to the us-against-them party system. The state affiliates of the duopoly then outlawed fusion voting which is such a help to insurgent parties.

    The biggest problem is the lack of free speech. One class (the rich) has a monopoly on the means of mass communication. Congress gave it to them along with a stream of revenue – tax deductible advertising. Radio and TV advertising is the biggest expense for political candidates.

    If every federal election district had a radio, TV station and website candidates could debate each other and run TV ads longer than a sound bite – free of charge. Free speech for the people and candidates wouldn’t require a constitutional amendment.
    Congress could it by majority vote just like congress did it for the rich. If congress taxed us directly for building the means of mass communication for each election district it would cost a family of 4 less than $5 a month.

    • michael
      July 10, 2019 at 07:29

      There are no Good Guys in this political misadventure. The Republicans want two more years of retribution investigations (without, of course, the cheerleading Establishment MSM) and they must know that anything of substance will be covered up. Our top politicians and bureaucrats are above the Law.
      And there will be no justice as far as the Deep State is concerned; the Stasi was much above-board relative to our technologically advanced 17 Intelligence Agencies. It is naive to think that foreign policy, THE major purpose of the federal government, would be left to politicians that turn over (in theory) every two to six years. Our think tanks (staffed and funded by Israelis and Saudis) broadly establish the strategies and the 17 Intelligence agencies see that these strategies are implemented. There is next to no input from We the People, who are just there to pay for the machinations. And like the intelligence gathering of the new Police State built since Bush II, which now extends domestically, there is little separation of attitudes that are perhaps needed in War, but now dominate political domestic “agendas” (handed down from big donors through their lobbyists).
      I hope I am wrong, but I see no solutions.

      • Bailey
        July 10, 2019 at 21:10

        If you’re including the Benghazi investigation into Hillary then I disagree that the GOP were being abusive. They had good reasons to ask her what happened there, but they didn’t go far enough. They should have asked her about the CIA transferring Gaddafi’s weapons to terrorists. I’m betting that they knew about that.

        That Obama’s state department armed and trained our very enemies is the definition of treason in my book. CIA

        • Seer
          July 10, 2019 at 23:23

          The GOP was making noises because they supported the fucking overthrow in the first place. Theirs was but a misdirection from their own participation in the crime. The GOP had/has blood all over their hands. Stevens’ death was likely seen as a good thing to BOTH parties: it’s a skeleton that could not pop out of the closet- Stevens knew all that went down there and could readily finger all the relevant participants in the crime.

    • geeyp
      July 11, 2019 at 01:50

      dean1000 – We had all this. And it worked very well. This was all prior to the fairness doctrine taken away.

  13. Tim Jones
    July 9, 2019 at 05:29

    See the Deep-State losing or the alternative will be profiling of potential future crimes for Americans who have liberal ideas. Like Snowden said, we’re not that far away from turnkey tyranny.

    And Wolfgang Schmidt: “It is the height of naivete to think that once collected this information won’t be used,” he said. “This is the nature of secret government organizations. The only way to protect the people’s privacy is not to allow the government to collect their information in the first place.”

    Oh dear. It means the way is clear for stronger abuses.

    Read more here: https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article24750439.html#storylink=cpy

    • doug
      July 9, 2019 at 14:50

      mcclatchy – Definite case of TDS. They’re the ones that led the charge that Michael Cohen was in Prague colluding with the Russians – and other such lies.

      • Tim Jones
        July 10, 2019 at 00:37

        Main point of here is the Smidt quote and we’re heading for worse abuses.

  14. Obi-jonKenobi
    July 9, 2019 at 05:24

    I used to take Ray McGovern seriously but not any more. Anyone that takes Kind and Nunes seriously given their long track record of specious claims and unfettered nonsense shows themselves to be a few beers short of a six pack. Say buh-bye, Ray, time for your nap.

  15. Tom
    July 9, 2019 at 01:28

    Arron Mate on Jimmy Dore

    Mueller repeatedly contracted himself
    and undermines Russia gate


    • Bob Van Noy
      July 9, 2019 at 12:57

      Tom, great catch and link. Probably this conversation between Aaron Mate and Jimmy Dore is as clear an analysis as we can get without a real investigation.

  16. Beijing Yank
    July 9, 2019 at 01:05

    Things are going too slow for comfort.
    The donkey strategy is distract and delay.
    The strategy is working well as their cabal tries to repair what went wrong with the election fix in 2016.

  17. bjd
    July 8, 2019 at 20:34

    There can only be one reaction to this article. One curt “Yup.”

  18. Joe T Wallace
    July 8, 2019 at 20:24

    I’m a great admirer of Ray McGovern’s reporting. He exposes much that is never revealed by the mainstream media. That said, I do have one quibble about this article. In the seventh paragraph, just below the heading “So Where is the IG Report on FISA?” he writes:

    “That’s the big one. If Horowitz is able to speak freely about what he has learned, his report could lead to indictments of former CIA Director John Brennan, former FBI Director James Comey, former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe, former Deputy Attorneys General Sally Yates and Rod Rosenstein, and Dana Boente — Boente being the only signer of the relevant FISA applications still in office. (No, he has not been demoted to file clerk in the FBI library; at last report, he is FBI General Counsel!).”

    My immediate reaction was: Who is Horowitz? It was confusing not to know. Further down in the article, I learned that Ray was referring to Michael Horowitz, a DOJ watchdog who is preparing an IG report about FISA abuse, but readers should have been informed who he was earlier in the article.

    • michael
      July 9, 2019 at 06:27

      Horowitz is the Inspector General of the Justice Department. https://oig.justice.gov/ His office (the biggest IG) has over 1600 employees, and is the independent, statutory oversight of the Justice Department (including the FBI). He stepped up to share the texts between Strzok and Page that his office had when the FBI “magically” claimed they lost all their copies.
      A major problem with IG oversight is that, although independent, they work closely with their Departments, and the relationship is not adversarial. The IGs mostly correct problems (particularly embarrassing political problems) behind the scenes, and rarely attack their Departments publicly. The IGs have a vested interest in their Departments looking good.
      Not so much has changed since the Deep State assassinated Kennedy. Unelected and difficult to remove (Brennan still has his security clearances; Allan Dulles continued to run the CIA after he was fired by JFK), these warped bureaucrats run foreign policy (and increasingly the US Police State) and are generally unaccountable (although low level scapegoats are given up occasionally).

  19. Brian James
    July 8, 2019 at 17:56

    June 18, 2019 US To Send $250 Million In Military Aid To Ukraine

    Saying that the new package was intended to enhance democratic civilian control of the military, the Pentagon has unveiled a package of around $250 million in military aid to the Ukraine. They emphasized the US commitment to supporting Ukraine.


    • July 15, 2019 at 21:02

      Correctamundo, Brian! The US government doesn’t find far-right extremist neo-Nazi governments it doesn’t like. In fact, the US loves to support neo-Nazis with weapons, training, and loot. Authoritarians. White supremacists. US government loves ’em. Not sure why us American citizens put up with this kind of shit, but we do and have for decades. Our right-wing US gubment does the same thing in supporting Wahhabi Muslim terrorists too. Crazy country full of war mongers, fundamentalists, and mean folks. That’s the US for you.


  20. John
    July 8, 2019 at 17:10

    Peter King? Devin Nunes?

    At one point the article says little effort was made to cover tracks because of certainty that HRC would win but later that the FBI et al were planting land mines to either defeat Trump or blow up his presidency. Seemed contradictory to me.

    Perhaps you have the skinny on these machinations, if indeed there were machinations by one person or group or another for this purpose or that.

    But Peter King and Devin Nunes? If either ever was credible, their track record condemns them to be received, if at all, with extreme skepticism.

    • Clark M Shanahan
      July 9, 2019 at 08:41

      “The Russians are playing with our minds” Michael Hayden
      “Putin is out to destroy our virginal democracy, cuz, America makes Russia look bad”.
      “Not responding to the Russians meddling in our election would be tantamount to Roosevelt not responding to Pearl Harbor”. Nadler
      All three paraphrased, but, correct.
      Do these three sound rational?
      Sorry to tell you, John, that we live in strange times were Nunes & King are most likely on the right side of history.
      The FBI taking as gospel the Crowdstrike findings and the Steele Dossier revelations without doing any independent verification is downright bizarre as with their not interviewing Assange and ignoring the warnings of Binney’s VIPS.

      • Clark M Shanahan
        July 9, 2019 at 08:48

        “The Russians were doing their nasty deeds right under our (FBI) watch, as if they had no concern at all of being discovered”.. Comey, again paraphrased..

  21. Realist
    July 8, 2019 at 16:59

    It will be a very interesting 2020 campaign if the Democratic candidate has to run with the ripe stinking dead albatross of Russiagate around her neck. Or will she be expected to repudiate the Hitlery-run DNC? Where does the money and the ground game originate if the latter?

    The only outcome that could be more bizarre than the last go-round would be to see Trump favored by all the smart money and then lose to the latest corporate Democrat to shamelessly sell out the middle class in broad daylight. I won’t like it, but I can see Trump Derangement Syndrome pulling out the chestnuts for the Dems, what with all their celebrity spokespeople constantly running and ranting like their hair is on fire underneath those pussy hats. My poor gullible sister from Cali embraces that whole ball of wax as revealed truth holier than the total dry weight of all the Abrahamic scriptures rolled into one big bale for the recycling center. Kamala Harris seems to be emerging as the new messiah anointed to lead this country back to Obamian gridlock and more prestidigitation like mandated insurance to ensure the health of the insurance companies. Again, it will only be the illusion of “free stuff.”

    The only way such a scenario won’t cause four more years of turmoil for this country (rinse and repeat in 2024) is if the victor is Gabbard and she ends all the illegal and unconstitutional wars by edict, telling all the sure-to-be pissing and moaning Deep State functionaries to pick up their severance pay and go pound sand. Then shut the world-wide spider web of military bases and bring home the troops while we can still afford the carfare. That would be “morning in America,” and Gabbard would be the most heroic chief exec since Lincoln and FDR made their marks in the history books, though such fantasies never play out in the real world. More likely all the criminal evidence of treason remains classified, most Americans pop the blue pill, the actual rabbit hole continues to grow ever deeper but the masses are contentedly oblivious to it all, satisfied to blame select scape goats from Russia, China and other “malign” countries for our viewing entertainment.

    • Deniz
      July 8, 2019 at 17:50

      The Grabber in Chief vs Willie Brown’s mistress – wonderful.

      • Jack Hudson
        July 9, 2019 at 02:00

        Excellent Post, Thanks for a great laugh :)

    • ML
      July 8, 2019 at 20:12

      You are really something, Realist. I love the way you flourish that pen of yours. Thank you.

    • Rob Roy
      July 8, 2019 at 20:13

      Realist, well said, per usual. To add a bit…the Dems probably gave Trump the gift of a lifetime…the next election. Wasting three years on Russiagate instead of hammering out a decent platform for the party was beyond dumb. That reminds me. the Dems’s next dumbest idea…choosing Joe Biden as their next candidate. Just like Hillary, he can’t beat Trump. The duopoly is dead, they just don’t know it.

      As for Tulsi, she’s got my vote.

      • Ash
        July 9, 2019 at 13:05

        The Dems CAN’T offer a decent platform. They know what their base wants, but their donors won’t allow it, so they have to find meaningless issues to take righteous moral stands on instead.

    • Seer
      July 10, 2019 at 23:59

      Harris and Biden will wrestle themselves over the cliff.

      Sanders WILL be the nominee. He has the numbers: the MSM does not want people so see them. Don’t believe it just look at the campaign finance filings for this last quarter. That said, something could go wrong, but, there really isn’t any HRC here, Warren, who will likely be the pony that the corporate Dems really push, just doesn’t have the total exposure that HRC had. Some might say this is a good thing, that HRC was, as it proved to be the case, a BIG LOSER. No argument there. But, Pocahontas would get eaten alive by Trump. Trump fears Gabbard the most: he’s met with her in person- anyone who has done so knows what a presence Gabbard has, what inner strength, not to mention physical strength (she is one woman that Trump wouldn’t dare grab by the P). Sanders’ following won’t be stopped. Consider that the odds are very great that he would be picking Gabbard as VP (and if not VP she’d for sure get Sec of State), THAT, IMO, would be a BIG win for all of mankind!

      A PLUG: Please, if you haven’t already, toss a $1 Mike Gravel’s way- $1 is worth the price of admission to see him on the stage beating the hell out of Biden one last time! (and there are other notable candidates, as already mentioned, that could also use a contribution as they don’t accept from corporate entities).

      • LiftUp
        July 11, 2019 at 13:40

        Right, Seer. I will donate $1 to Gravel. His point of view was sadly lacking in the debates, where only Gabbard’s was worth hearing on that stage. Please share the donate link if you have it. And the same for Gabbard, because she too will be cast aside from the debates if she doesn’t increase her number of donors, I believe.

  22. John Earls
    July 8, 2019 at 16:55

    Looks like Barry Eisler’s John Rain (expert in “death by natural causes”) will have a lot of work in front of him if the investigation builds and a whole lot of “material witnesses” begin to testify.

  23. ricardo2000
    July 8, 2019 at 16:33

    I’m supposed to feel sorry for the surveillance of a right-wing creep? OH PLEASE.
    No one in government, or the right wing ReThugs, has ever suffered the intrusive, lying, speculative ‘investigations’ that social justice, environmental, or human rights activists have over the past 70 years.

    When these buttheads suffer what MLK and Malcolm X have suffered then I might just wipe away a few tears, after I stop roaring with laughter and get off the floor.

    • Realist
      July 8, 2019 at 17:08

      You prefer a race to the bottom of the cesspool?

      You never win when you adopt the methods you claim to revile. The opponent who introduced the tactics you condemn wins if you embrace them as your own. You didn’t beat him, you joined him.

      • LJ
        July 9, 2019 at 16:00

        Wait a second Realist, you got it backwards: If you can’t beat ’em, join’ ’em. That’s the folk wisdom. And what about Mud Wrasslin”. It is what it is?

    • LibertyBonBon
      July 8, 2019 at 18:12

      Must be nice to think the justice system should revolve around your particular emotions, rather than equality and objectivity. Safe and easy.

      • Seer
        July 11, 2019 at 00:02

        We have a justice system? OK, nice to know…

    • Dunderhead
      July 8, 2019 at 20:41

      ricardo2000, nothing personal, I get the revulsion to Trump and entourage not to mention a large portion of the Maga crowd but this right and left thing is really just an illusion, the people doing the persecuting here regardless of how disgusting Trump is are the same ones doing the persecuting to a large degree of everyone else from Assange to the Iranians, that is this government deep state in combination with all of the various American alphabet soup agencies as well as foreign deep states have cornered the market in State power, hate Trump but don’t confuse this with a good thing.

    • Deniz
      July 9, 2019 at 10:10

      The Right Wing Creeps have morphed into Left Wing Creeps. The Money and the Power could care less if less about your personal views as they can figure out a way to profit from it, preferably through another war for team Oil & Israel.

  24. July 8, 2019 at 16:18

    Thank you, Ray McGovern. You are a good man, Charlie Brown!

    Thing is, all of this was predictable from the beginning. Many of us saw it coming.

    No one really wanted an incompetent baboon running things – the song about Monkey and the Engineer comes to mind – so Obama tried to hamstring Trump with this investigation. I mean, Obama couldn’t very well have not completed the transfer of power because it is the most valuable thing about democracy. There is no ten year bloody hellified civil war every time the crown changes hands from one inbred to the next.

    So Obama did the next best thing on his way out the Oval Office doors, he put Brennan and the boys on it. Seemed like a good idea at the time, I’m sure. But it backfired because he couldn’t call the dogs off once he was no longer president. Not Brennan, not anyone could call them off after the snowball really got rolling because the spooks believed their own story and the media made too much money off selling the mythology:


    Only question left to answer now is whether or not Trump the carnival barker can milk his opportunist Armageddon into a second term of fleecing the rubes.


  25. karlof1
    July 8, 2019 at 15:00

    This is a very serious Constitutional Law issue and MUST be pursued–and it makes no difference the political party denomination of those breaking the law! The Current Oligarchy–Deep State–is the adversary of the vast majority of US citizens and humanity. With Epstein’s arrest and the developments McGovern relates, some progress appears to be happening.

  26. Lydia
    July 8, 2019 at 14:51

    You summed it up perfectly, Jill.

  27. Pablo Diablo
    July 8, 2019 at 14:42

    “the effort to defeat Trump and, later, to emasculate and, if possible, remove him.” says it all. Trump is a loose cannon. The so called “Deep State” has been “controlling” our Presidents since at least the Dulles Brothers. Truman even admitted giving them power was a BIG mistake. Still question the Kennedy Assassination.
    In the 70’s, the FBI mailed me a box of drugs, which I refused to take from a very incompetent fake Mail Man, and three minutes later they showed up with a search warrant for my house that listed all the drugs in the failed mailed box signed by a Federal Judge. So much for FISA. The bullshit continues. I could reveal more if necessary.

  28. robert e williamson jr
    July 8, 2019 at 14:32

    Sam F. whether you realize it or not you got it pretty much on the nose. Except for this.

    The judiciary has been compromised by the congresses refusal to hold CIA et. al. accountable for their actions. Why? Those in congress remember what happened to JFK.

    The number one reason is because the deep state ensures that if anyone goes after CIA officials or designees that the persons career and life are ruined. Which is something else that needs to be investigated. Something that if explored may very well put a stop to CIA’s B.S. of lying about everything and getting away with it.

    Currently no deterrent exists. None.

    Anytime some one or entity gets close the Deep State ends up with their guy as AG. See the Bill Barr story.

    Barr may get his chance to prove me right and at the same time prove “Lady Justice” has little to do with the DOJ! I think he is a cowardly blowhard. Justice would be Trump and Barr going to jail .

    Justice in this country for the true scoundrels in government or billionaires is non- existent at this point in time. Putting Epstein in prison for life is called for and if he is threatened with that maybe his jaw will loosen up.

    Until DOJ can become a deterrent to bad actors in government, all government the country will be controlled by the Deep State. The SWETS, super wealthy elitists.

    Keep your eyes on George Soro and the Kochs.

    • July 8, 2019 at 17:28

      @ “Justice would be Trump and Barr going to jail .”

      Are you suggesting that *any* of their living predecessors don’t deserve the same? If so, which do not and why?

      • michael
        July 9, 2019 at 06:45

        What?? Don’t you realize that the world was wonderful in 2016, the birds were singing, there was no sexual harassment or climate change, our politicians were all statesmen, and the Clintons were devoted to charity. Our wars were all just wars, our incarcerated all deserved to be in jail, for being poor. America was a shining beacon of exceptionalism to the rest of the world.
        Things have changed with Trump.

    • Sam F
      July 8, 2019 at 17:47

      Yes, the federal judiciary are entirely corrupt, hidden behind robes and fine declarations of rights for their own tribes and those with bribe money. DOJ appears to be just as political: they refuse to investigate politicians of their own party even when handed the evidence. They invariably assume that the US does no wrong no matter how obvious, deliberate, and incontrovertible.

      We await any evidence that any of them are in fact patriotic, or good citizens, or defenders of the Constitution or even democracy itself, or even care for justice. In many years experience I have seen zero evidence that any of them are more than party gangsters on the public payroll.

    • July 9, 2019 at 21:16

      Scarily, rogue elements of the CIA, FBI, and perhaps military may be instigators, enforcers, and/or rule-makers of the Deep State. Like Kiriakou has stated, they just wait Presidents out (or congresspeople, or anyone), or kill them … Very scary, and the CIA sure as h_ll needs to be OUT of our schools, if anyone would sue them — not sure how to get them out otherwise (I don’t have the funds). I have more detailed explanation of my concerns as a fired whistleblower at a powerful medical institution/university, and large CIA hub (second to Langley at one point, maybe still) at ourconstitution.info, Home, and Medical-Military page under that, as well as more detailed comments copied on my Outreach, Other Comments page (see near the bottom).

  29. Jay
    July 8, 2019 at 14:18


    I agree something very suspect occurred.

    And it’s very likely the Obama White House knew that either the NSA or the FBI was tapping into the communications of some of Trump’s campaign team BEFORE Hillary lost in Nov. 2016.

    However the xenophobic, lying, terrorist (IRA) supporting, Peter King is not a credible messenger. (Right, Rep Steve King of Iowa is even worse than King of Long Island.)

  30. Peter Dyer
    July 8, 2019 at 14:09

    Thanks, Ray.

  31. DH Fabian
    July 8, 2019 at 13:59

    Actually, that deep split among the masses, and certainly within the Dem voting base, was achieved in the 1990s — middle class vs. poor, workers vs. those left jobless, further split by race. The Obama years confirmed that this split is permanent. Russia had nothing to do with the Democrats’ 2016 defeat, nor will it be the reason for their 2020 defeat. Democrats maintain their resistance against acknowledging the consequences of dividing and conquering their own voting base.

    • EuGene Miller
      July 9, 2019 at 00:24

      DH, that’s an interesting assessment. However, I doubt that any House or Senate Democrat sought an advantage by “splitting their base”. The elected Dems do not control the narrative. So, who benefits by splitting the masses into rival factions?

      Perhaps the narrative of social and political discourse is defined by the owners, boards, and foundations that control the main-stream media and pop-culture.

      Robert Reich wrote that an oligarchy divides-and-conquers the rest of us. I suspect that controlling the narrative is not simply a propaganda tool; it is the basis of divide-and-conquer strategy.


  32. robert e williamson jr
    July 8, 2019 at 13:56

    Is it possible that the DOJ, see the Sec. of Labor’s problems developing with the Espstein case, is about to have it’s gloriously corrupt underbelly rolled over into the sunlight? (you must roll the snake over to see its belly)

    Please Ray tell me this is where we might be heading or instead will we end up with the courts truncating investigation because they say it will be best for the country not to have all this filthy laundry dragged out into the sunlight or someones bull shit sources and methods might be exposed. The DOJ has become a really bad joke!

    I’m hoping you know something I don’t because Barr’s past history pretty much speaks for itself I’d say after be made sure he pardoned all of Bush 41 henchmen!

    At this point I certainly do not have much faith in the DOJ doing the right thing. What Acosta did in Florida with Epstein was hardly the right thing to do.

    They all need to be locked up.

  33. Eric32
    July 8, 2019 at 13:33

    Very little “punishment” will occur, and no deep change cleanup will occur.
    The US govt. is controlled by money and blackmail – not “voting” or public outrage.

    So many high level people have so much dirt on other high level people that nothing major will be done.
    A series of very big events, including the JFK murder and the 9/11 charade went unexposed and undealt with – there is no reason to think that this medium size event will wind up making a big difference.

    What will happen is that US “democracy” will continue on its downward course, but maybe with a better facade.

    • Dunderhead
      July 8, 2019 at 20:59

      I personally believe that the empire will crash when it hits maximum overreach it will also simultaneously go broke at the same time, as the money interests at that point Will probably move east, this will partially be due to both the feds tendency to over inflate in order to cover military acquisitions as well as the decline of swift and the ascendancy of China in the rest. I actually think that this is what some American factions desire, it is potentially good for all of us if we can regain a republic but it will mean the end of American hegemony.

  34. Gary Weglarz
    July 8, 2019 at 13:22

    This is the same “deep state” that assassinated a sitting president, then proceeded to assassinate the next three most important and influential progressive leaders in the country all over a five year period. Problem solved. And just when you thought Allen Dulles didn’t know what to do with all those oh so experienced Nazi war criminals he’d recruited to the CIA.

    When Congress investigated the CIA in the mid-1970’s (before Congress became completely “owned” by the deep state) right on cue witnesses began to “commit suicide” just before they would be scheduled to testify. Problem solved. Hardly a raised eyebrow from the always complicit MSM through all of this. Expecting anything more than a massive coverup of this latest deep state corruption and abuse is beyond my abilities to even effectively fantasize about.

    • herbert davis
      July 8, 2019 at 14:12

      Justice in the USA?

  35. John Drake
    July 8, 2019 at 13:20

    The corporate Democrats strike out again. They run a corrupt, violent(war monger) candidate, who loses to a buffoon-an election which was hers to lose. Meanwhile trying to hedge their bets they play sleazeball with the investigative arm’s authority in order to sabotage said buffoon; which as it is revealed gives ammunition and the advantage to their target. i.e. “They were illegally picking on me”
    If Trump is smart-a very long stretch, but some advisor might suggest this- he will expose all this slime closer to the election for maximum effect. What a distressing thought. All the more reason to run a progressive Presidential candidate that can disavow the DNC clowns and their corruption.

  36. geeyp
    July 8, 2019 at 12:37

    It’s past time for the Deep State to come up from the deep state of hell in which they reside. At least to purgatory for some fresh air and a wee ray of light. I couldn’t let the Schumer warning keep me from giving the go ahead on this. If my coconut is shattered, someone somewhere (not our current media) would have a clue as to what happened to me. Sic ’em, President Trump and A.G. and Devin Nunes!

  37. Sam F
    July 8, 2019 at 12:14

    The US needs to solve the underlying problem of corruption of secret agencies and judiciary, otherwise the political wrongdoing of one faction will only be matched by that of its opponents, regardless of a few prosecutions. I know from experience the extreme corruption of the Repubs, and little doubt that the Dems do such things at least when desperate.

    The solution includes:
    1. All secrets meaningfully shared among multiparty committees;
    2. All politicians and top officials monitored for corrupt influence;
    3. Entire federal judiciary fired, replaced, and monitored like the politicians; and
    4. Amendments to protect elections and mass media from control by money power.
    Until then all government acts are tribal gangsterism and little more.

    • Guy
      July 8, 2019 at 13:50

      You forgot about dual citizenship members of the senate and congress . Elected as a representative for the country of the US should mean just that and not another country . And while we are at it , major reform on monetary contributions to candidates running for re-election . There is something terribly wrong with needing millions if not billions of dollars to run the electoral races.There is much more that needs to be done but this would be a good start .

      • Sam F
        July 8, 2019 at 17:32

        Yes, the proposed Amendments would restrict funding of mass media and elections to registered individual contributions (some prefer government funding) limited to the average day’s pay annually (for example), with full reporting by candidates and all intermediaries. We all can see the destruction of democracy that was caused by economic power controlling elections, mass media, the judiciary, etc.

        But of course we cannot get those amendments because those tools of democracy now belong to the rich, etc. History suggests that we are in for generations of severe decline before the people are hurting enough to turn off the tube and do something, and generations more before they can re-establish democracy.

        • Bob Van Noy
          July 9, 2019 at 10:10

          Sam F. You are due the highest of praise from those of us who frequent this site as a voice Of moderation and deep insight. I think we all sense that we are at that very moment where we have a truly unique opportunity to correct some deep injustice, and to help set a better course as a people seeking (Justice?)…

          • Sam F
            July 10, 2019 at 07:04

            Thanks, Bob, I appreciate your contribution to the discussion here. Yes, the moment of despair is also the moment of hope and opportunity for action.

    • July 8, 2019 at 15:20

      Ray McGovern writes:“Classification,” however, has been one of the Deep State’s favorite tactics to stymie investigations — especially when the material in question yields serious embarrassment or reveals crimes. And the stakes this time are huge”

      On the matter of government reform classification there is a great need of public discussion and radical reform. Why? Because the government is playing with an essential right, the right to know. All the red herrings needed to be thrown in the trash and the burden placed on the classifiers to justify why the public does not have a right to know.

      • Sam F
        July 8, 2019 at 17:24

        Yes, the facts and their significance (especially about false flags and scandals) need to be publicly debated, as well as policy goals, and the policies derived from facts and goals. We have far too many government secrets to sustain a democracy.

        I suggest limiting secrets to ongoing investigations (with a time limit), defensive military plans and operations (not alleged provocations or aggressive war schemes), and personal IDs of those at risk. Beyond that secrets disguise tyranny.

    • Ida G Millman
      July 8, 2019 at 16:02

      Another path towards a solution to government corruption could be term limits for all federal representatives. Limiting the number of terms would curtail the opportunities for forming the uninterrupted years of long coalitions between public servants and government officials that result in the abuses of power that have damaged the interests of ordinary less wealthy citizens, in favor of corporate and military interests.

      In the matter of the original intentions of the men who wrote our founding documents, we should consider one of the enormous differences that technology has made between us: that our representatives can travel between DC and their homes with enough ease that they can continue reasonably, or nearly reasonably, satisfactory family lives – something that could not be done in the 18th century. The forefathers did not foresee that being a member of government would become a career for a lifetime. They assumed, I believe, that members of government would always be citizens who would give our country a few years of their lives and then return to private life to share their experience and knowledge with their neighbors.

      Such a change would not magically reform government corruption. There will always be those who will find a way – but it could slow things down and it would certainly engage an increasing number of citizens who would participate in governing, as well as the circles of people surrounding each of them whose interest in and understanding of government would increase because everyone would know more of their representatives. Got that, kids? L&B&L

      • Sam F
        July 8, 2019 at 17:37

        Term limits are useful and we should enact more. There seems to be a sufficient supply of puppets for the rich/WallSt/Mic/zionists to ensure that all new candidates represent only those interests, unless we go further and control funding of mass media and elections, monitoring of politicians and judges for life, etc.

      • Rob Roy
        July 8, 2019 at 20:28

        Term limits wouldn’t be necessary if money were out of elections and all elections were publicly funded. Next, a law should be passed to prevent retired congress people from lobbying for any private company of any kind. Then people wouldn’t have to spend all their time in congress lining up money for the next election, nor would they owe favors to anyone.

    • Dunderhead
      July 8, 2019 at 21:19

      Sam F, all of those goals seem very nice but it would probably be better if we just dissolved back into 50 states save for an interstate system and a very small navy for common defense, maybe four nuclear submarines total, the American people will be best off without a government completely working it out for themselves, if some of them work it out in completely different ways without hurting each other so be it. Besides even a libertarians would have to acknowledge democracy best works for smaller populations. We may never be able to curb the will to power of evil men but we can diminish their abilities to fleece the public if we are not subject to them.

      • Sam F
        July 9, 2019 at 12:03

        Looking at the dissolution issue, it appears that the state governments are just as bad, with exceptions.

        The base problems are
        1. Failure to protect the institutions of democracy (all branches and mass media) from money power;
        2. Failure to make checks and balances work against executive agencies and judiciary;
        3. Failure to regulate economic power and now information power (due to (1) above);
        4. (a number of lesser issues)

        The state governments have the same problems, and are sometimes kept in line by the federal government as intended. Often the state governments are much worse, and municipal governments even worse, with very primitive corruption. So we need to solve those problems at all levels.

        • Dunderhead
          July 9, 2019 at 22:22

          You do makes some excellent points but I’m speaking more than an Arco State or stateless if you prefer, people will self aggregate, We, don’t need to solve anything, people will do that with their own feet, that is those who want to.

          It should also be said I am sure there would be in such a society socialist inclined stateless which will probably work completely fine if not based on compulsion, at any rate everyone would be better off not under the dollar system or subject to the regulatory capture that is the federal government of these United States.

          The economic spiritual and cultural flowering of a people so long under the repression of the avarice sadists that make up our political and financial elites would be not only breathtaking but the perfect revenge. Our peoples have never been more than pawns to be conveniently used against one another propagandize and paupered, to see the Rockefeller’s, Koch’s, Bushes’s or Clinton’s have to look on while the actual people get to work it out for themselves without their manipulation or leave would probably be if not quite justice at least the best we could hope for, at any rate one can dream.

          • Sam F
            July 10, 2019 at 06:59

            Certainly a fragmented US would be less powerful yet able to provide for common defense by treaty, hence less likely to engage in aggressive foreign wars. If secession were announced by a US state or two, it would interesting to see whether the same tribalism would bring war against them by “the Union” as in the Civil War. This time the excuses would not be present, neither opposition to slavery nor need for united defense.

    • Tim Jones
      July 9, 2019 at 05:45

      We hope there is an opposite group from the Deep State that exists, that can carry out this agenda.

      • Sam F
        July 10, 2019 at 12:08

        That would be quite an historic moment. They would have to announce a coup, depose the Executive, C0ngress, and Judicial branches until new election funding law was in place, and mass media were put into the hands of universities until new MSM corps can be defined. They would need extensive military connections to succeed. Unless the advocates of force had very enlightened leadership, it seems more likely to lead to dictatorship. But a progressive President could do that, if backed by a large administration installed immediately at the major agencies of power.

        The scenario might occur down the road when public discontent is explosive. If US foreign aggression results in defeats and broad embargoes against the US, it could still tyrannize S/C America, and after that its domestic population. Not sure whether plentiful US domestic resources will ever leave the public sufficiently desperate, unless a series of bubble recessions combines with ever more outrage at violent suppression of dissent, surveillance, etc..

        • Dunderhead
          July 10, 2019 at 21:14

          What if there was no revolution? What if we just continued to replace and undermine the system from within and without. For whatever reason these neocons and Likud are doing this to themselves, everything they do falls apart and leads to their inevitable demise, sometimes I ask myself is this the plan and I’m just not seeing it, those moments are rare these people are so unbelievably arrogant I don’t think you can fake that at least not that consistently, anyway if things keep moving as they are I do not see the likelihood of the US choosing to stay as a cohesive unit. This will be hard for many people but there is good precedent in our history so who knows.

  38. Jay
    July 8, 2019 at 11:42

    Peter King?

    Really now.

    Not a credible source, no matter how invention filled Russia-gate is. And no matter how clear it is that in 2016 the FBI was poking around campaign Trump and likely telling the White House what it found.

    • Bif Webster
      July 8, 2019 at 13:28

      I agree that King isn’t the best of messengers, but we can also go to others who are not right-wing to see something fishy went on.

      Those text messages convinced me something was going on. And that was before all the other stuff came to light.

      I think this will be about who has more dirt on the other side… you know, leverage?

  39. Jeff Harrison
    July 8, 2019 at 11:41

    Thank you, Ray. Forgive my cynicism but the US government is so corrupt, has wielded illegitimate power for so long, and has covered the tracks of countless functionaries who have not upheld the constitution that I doubt this will go anywhere. I have been quoting Ben Franklin for some time… “you have a republic, if you can keep it.” I don’t think we can. A reading of “A History of Venice” by John J. Norris would be appropriate here. The most serene republic lasted for essentially 1,000 years from roughly 800 to not quite 1800, first as a democracy, later as an oligarchy. Much like us, including having the most feared secret service in Europe at the time, Venice kept its power through trade but at least we don’t hoist the new president up on a chair so that he can throw golden Ducats to the crowd on Wall Street the way that a new Doge would.

    I don’t see that as necessarily much of a plus.

  40. Steven Berge
    July 8, 2019 at 11:40

    I don’t suppose anything will happen to anybody important about this. After all, nothing happened to anybody when they were caught mass spying on any and all american citizens, even before they made it legal.

  41. Drew Hunkins
    July 8, 2019 at 11:32

    Unfortunately Webb and Parry exposed much of these gangster criminal “intel” savages for running guns and drugs to Central American pseudo fascist mercenary sadists throughout much of the late 1970s through the ’80s. I say unfortunately b/c nothing much ever came along by way of true justice, by way of the criminal players rotting in maximum security jail cells for years on end, not unlike the crack or heroin addict who steals a $400 television.

  42. Jill
    July 8, 2019 at 11:15

    This has been one long crime against the American people. King should read what he knows into the Congressional Record. I have no sympathy for Trump’s fear of the deep state. He has sent people to die knowing full well that his actions were based on lies, lies that would result in the deaths of civilians as well as our own military. If he is going to do that, then he should have the courage to face the deep state. That’s partial penance for all the deaths he has caused.

    I also don’t care about Trump’s personal issue about being surveilled. He personally supports that against everyone else. That is why I feel this is a crime against our people as a whole. Our constitution has been stripped bare. We don’t have the rule of law. Mass surveillance covering the globe is current reality. It is dangerous. It is wrong. It is lawless. It is a disaster.

    Further, Russiagate was used to keep real opposition away from Trump. His supporters doubled down on “liking” Trump because he appeared to be a victim of these lies. Democrats meanwhile learned to further worship the IC. They ignored Trump’s actual unlawful behavior, and, in the case of war crimes, still support Trump on every war/regime change action etc. recommended to them by their IC “resistance” “leaders”.

    People won’t speak to one another because of this division, all based on lies. Democrats want Assange put to death because he exposed truthful information about Clinton. Neighbor has turned against neighbor over this. We have stopped talking and stopped thinking about whether claims make sense or have evidence behind them. Political parties have become cults with cult leaders. Meanwhile, many who think it was wrong to use surveillance against Trump, accept mass surveillance against everyone else, including themselves.

    This has been one of the most effective propaganda tools I have ever seen against our populace. It has created a divided, unthinking populace who is ripe for the picking by evil men and women. I am truly hoping that once this is exposed people will stop this madness and pull together for a common good. But I’m quite worried that, like most cults, when the leader is shown to be wrong, people cling to them even more.

    I cannot believe what Russiagate has done to our own people. I am terrified at the wars it has/may yet cause and the cruelty against others, both foreign and domestic, which it has wrought.

    • Nicky T
      July 8, 2019 at 14:02

      Wow. Right on all counts.

      The only thing I would like to add is that the references to the mythical, or, as has been said, “elastic” concept of a “Deep State” are not helpful to this article, engendering instant suspicion of bias. This term is only meaningful to conspiracy theorists and has little to do with the subject discussed. Always used to push the reader into a negative emotional state, much like the use of the term “regime” to bias against any government that the writer disapproves of. Sloppy writing.

      • Dunderhead
        July 8, 2019 at 21:51

        What else would you call it, there have always been nefarious agents in one government or another for one gangster interest or another, whether was Milner’s roundtable or Dulles’s Gladio werewolves, these are nefarious individuals there is no gray area in that, however they may conduct themselves and their personal lives, it is not sloppy journalism, is to call something what it is, a this shadow government working in many instances against the direct interest of the American people, I’m not trying to be you over the head with this but Mr. McGovern was once upon a Time swimming in the same waters and he knows what he is talking about. The deep state maybe several different factions but all of it at least so far is fairly I’m Accountable, this thing must be named.

      • July 8, 2019 at 22:43

        You defeat your own attempted point by using the term “conspiracy theorists” to slag those you don’t like…– Are you completely ignorant of the now documented fact that this term was developed by the CIA as a Psychological Warfare weapon to use against those who sought the truth as to the JFK Murder/Assassination? Came out in FOIA Requests I do believe…seems you’ve been successfully targeted by same and are guilty of “Sloppy writing”.

      • July 9, 2019 at 01:46

        @ “… only meaningful to conspiracy theorists …”

        I object to the term “conspiracy theorist” as being so abused that it conveys no coherent meaning other than disapproval.

        In the U.S., a conspiracy is “[a]n agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal act, along with an intent to achieve the agreement’s goal. Most U.S. jurisdictions also require an overt act toward furthering the agreement.” https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/conspiracy

        Consider the 9/11 tragedy: Under the “official version,” a number of al Qaeda activists armed with box-cutters hijacked four airliners and flew three of them into targeted buildings with great loss of life. Those who do not accept the official version are derided as “conspiracy theorists.” But the official version itself claims an “agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal act, along with an intent to achieve the agreement’s goal.” Should we then view the authors of the 9/11 Commission Report as conspiracy theorists too?

        Conspiracy law has an easily understood purpose: The driver of the getaway car in a bank robbery gone wrong resulting in a murder should not walk free just because he did not anticipate that there would be any shooting, took no part in the actual robbery, and did not break any traffic laws during the escape. No. He should have anticipated that something might go wrong and result in a shooting and his agreement to drive the getaway car was both premeditated and in furtherance of the bank robbery. As such, he shares liability with his co-conspirators.

        Thousands of cases of conspiracy are proved in U.S. courts every year. Does that mean that the judges, juries, and prosecutors in those cases were all “conspiracy theorists?”

        Charging that someone is a “conspiracy theorist” is no more than ducking the other side’s substantive points by ridicule. It does not meet the substance of the other side’s point, hence is a logical fallacy.

        In Mr. McGovern’s article, I think his use of “Deep State” was appropriate. For those who have closely followed the Russia-Gate debacle (that is, I suspect the majority of this article’s readers), there is no doubt which agencies McGovern refers to by use of that term. And “deep state” is not, in my opinion, nearly so elastic as the term “conspiracy theorists.”

        So please refrain from uttering “conspiracy theorists.” All it does it say that you’ve got nothing better to offer than an insult.

    • AnneR
      July 8, 2019 at 14:18

      First the Disclaimer: I’m not a supporter of either side of the one party two headed monster political machine, not of either HRC or DT, both, and their “parties,” making me want to puke.

      I am curious about the following: “He [DT] has sent people to die knowing full well that his actions were based on lies, lies that would result in the deaths of civilians as well as our own military. If he is going to do that, then he should have the courage to face the deep state. That’s partial penance for all the deaths he has caused.”

      While I have no doubt that DT has been responsible for civilian deaths (I am far less concerned about military deaths – join the military and you cannot expect not to have to chance it, particularly in a warmongering nation state; if the recruit doesn’t recognize this reality, then they need to do some reading), *most* such deaths in those countries we (the US and its vassal states and proxies) have been happily bombing, shelling, destroying one way or another, even since the late 1980s (not therefore including the appalling and illegal warring on Vietnam et al) are down, not to DT, but rather to presidents: BC, GHB, GWB, BO. Pretty evenly divided betwixt the two heads, wouldn’t you say?

      That’s not to excuse DT (and I wouldn’t excuse HRC either – think Libya; as bad as MA, if with different forms of warfare; but then they’re buddies, like attracting like).

      We – the US – need to stop killing other peoples (let’s cry for the war-making profiteers), stop destroying other countries (and for our corporate-capitalists who plunder them); need to mind our own “shop” and business. And stop pretending that we’re such a wonderful, white-hatted, “good” nation.

      • Jill
        July 8, 2019 at 15:15


        We have had war criminal presidents from the legacy parties, period. Barr is a party to war crimes so I share other’s doubts that he will do anything about actual justice. He may be in on the current winning side of the IC and they may be purging some enemies at this time. That is the only thing I see Barr being involved in.

        Speaking as someone who has done counter-recruitment in schools, I will just give you my experience. Students are tracked from grade school. A file is kept on them with over a thousand data points. These files are taken by recruiters and used to “pitch” the military to young people. I don’t know if you were sophisticated at 16. I was a little bit but not much. So here’s an example–they told one young woman who had a single mother that if she went in the military she would not be a burden on her mother any longer. They understood the family had few resources and they played on this young woman’s “guilt” over being a financial “drain” on her mother. No, recruiters do not tell the truth to those they meet. They lie and they lie very well because they have excellent information to help them tell the correct lies. That girl is dead and I mourn her death.

        • Deniz
          July 9, 2019 at 12:58

          “Students are tracked from grade school. A file is kept on them with over a thousand data points. These files are taken by recruiters and used to “pitch” the military to young people… So here’s an example–they told one young woman who had a single mother that if she went in the military she would not be a burden on her mother any longer. They understood the family had few resources and they played on this young woman’s “guilt” over being a financial “drain” on her mother…That girl is dead and I mourn her death.”

          This story should be widely published.

      • Dunderhead
        July 8, 2019 at 22:05

        AnneR, you have so much anger, I understand, it is terrible what our nation has done and is continuing to do, it has gone on so long that many of the people currently perpetrating the crimes against foreign populations are themselves of descendents of peoples the US has victimized. It’s the propaganda, the United States is one of the most heavily propagandize societies in the world, we make the Soviets look like children. No one wants you to have sympathy for Donald Trump, you do not have to agree or like a person to see that the cartel seeking to damage him is also simultaneously against your interests and they are against your interests whether you’re from the left or the right because they do not have an ideology just it will to power.

      • July 9, 2019 at 01:54

        @ “(I am far less concerned about military deaths – join the military and you cannot expect not to have to chance it, particularly in a warmongering nation state; if the recruit doesn’t recognize this reality, then they need to do some reading) …”

        As a young man who had done an awful lot of reading (they closed the school library to me in the 6th grade because I was reading instead of doing my homework), I have to recall that despite having read very much about war, I still found myself near utterly unprepared for war’s reality. I don’t think it’s fair to attribute prior knowledge of that reality to raw recruits.

        Those who re-enlist, yes. But please show a bit more tenderness to the first-timer.

      • michael
        July 9, 2019 at 07:10

        While America excels at killing, maiming and displacing civilians by our military, their most effective methods involve sanctions (usually linked to “National Emergencies” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_in_the_United_States).
        Sanctions punish people, not military targets.
        Correspondent Leslie Stahl asked MadelineAlbright about the sanctions on Iraq, “We have heard that a half-million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And — and, you know, is the price worth it?”
        Albright replied: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it.”

    • Dunderhead
      July 8, 2019 at 22:09

      Jill that was an incredibly cogent description of the mess we are currently in, congratulations on such clarity, peace out.

    • David Otness
      July 9, 2019 at 00:18

      With you on all that you state, Jill. It’s really exposed the U.S. population for what we unfortunately are, if not what we’ve become. So reminiscent of the darker days of the Cold War. A stark education has just played out to this point.
      I wonder how many have learned anything at all from it?

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