One ironic benefit from Donald Trump’s presidency is that the world is showing more independence against U.S. edicts, such as the recent rebuff of Trump’s decision to move the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, as Dennis J Bernstein reports.
By Dennis J Bernstein
The U.N. General Assembly’s rebuff of overt threats of economic retaliation from President Trump — in the overwhelming repudiation of his decision to move the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem — marked a rare show of independence from Washington. Despite President Trump’s threats, the vote against the U.S. position was 128 to 9, with 35 abstentions.
The United Nations logo in the General Assembly Hall. (Official U.N. Photo)
I spoke about the significance of the vote with Professor Francis Boyle, a scholar and long-time pro-Palestinian activist, who has been deeply engaged in the Mideast peace process and various negotiations over the last 30 years. Boyle is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois’ College of Law. He served as a legal advisor to the Palestinian Liberation Organization.
Dennis Bernstein: Before we jump into this, I would like people to know a little bit more about your background, because you’re the perfect person to hit this subject at this time. Just say a little bit more about your work with the Palestinians.
Francis Boyle: Right. Well, starting in 1987, at [the Palestinians] request, I made a speech at the United Nations on the 20th anniversary of the Six-Day War. And, in this speech, I outlined to them an agenda for establishing their statehood, including, at some point, invoking the Uniting for Peace Resolution.
So, they liked what I had to say and asked me to write it up in a memo, which I did. You can read it in my book “Palestine, Palestinians and International Law.” And they then carried out my recommendation in their Declaration of Independence of 15 November, 1988. And I was their legal advisor on all of that. My memorandum became their position paper. And I’ve worked with them since then.
Today, the State of Palestine is recognized du jour by 136 states, the last time I looked. And it also has U.N. observer state status now at the United Nations along the lines that Switzerland had before it became a full-fledged U.N. member state.
[…] And certainly the Palestinians have publicly stated that they can, at some point in the future, invoke the Uniting for Peace Resolution to obtain their admission to the United Nations as a full-fledged U.N. member state. They said that’s next on the agenda. I guess we have to see what happens here. I really can’t say, but they said they’re renewing that struggle in January [2018], after the dust settles here.
DB: Okay, now let’s talk about the significance of the vote today [Dec. 21], which has a lot to do with Jerusalem. And, talk about it, if you will, in the context of the Uniting for Peace procedure because this gives it more power or more of a focus.
FB: Well, that is correct. When Uniting for Peace started out, back during the days of the Korean War, the Soviet Union proceeded to exercise a veto. And the United States under Secretary of State Dean Acheson – back in those days we controlled the General Assembly – put forward the Uniting for Peace Resolution in the General Assembly to circumvent the Soviet veto. And then [the US] used it to impose fairly terrible economic sanctions against North Korea that continue until today.
And, over the years, the Uniting for Peace procedure was approved by the International Court of Justice in the [Unclear 05:48] advisory opinion in 1962. And I did, I was the one who informed the Palestinians about the Uniting for Peace procedure and that we need to go forward and use it. And they have used it.
And [the vote on Dec. 21] was yet another example. The mainstream news media is dismissing this as nothing more than symbolic. You know, Dennis, if it were nothing more than symbolic then why did Nikki Haley get up there and threaten to break the legs of everyone in the world, if they voted for it, and likewise, Trump make his thuggish threat, as well, at his last cabinet meetings? So it’s far more than symbolic.
Under Uniting for Peace the General Assembly cannot require states to do anything. But they can certainly authorize them. And what happens here with this resolution under Uniting for Peace is that it really solidified the international consensus on Jerusalem. As you note, we discussed this before, when Trump announced his new policy, and invited other states to follow moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, which it definitely is not, whether west Jerusalem or east Jerusalem.
And, this vote today really solidifies that international consensus. So that is a positive thing, but, obviously it’s going to have to be followed up by more steps by the Palestinians. Again, my advice is the next stage here is to use United for Peace to have Palestine admitted to the U.N. itself. But, that’s under consideration. We’ll have to see what they do.
DB: And what, exactly, did that resolution say? It was reinforcing earlier Security Council resolutions. What exactly are we talking about here?
FB: Well, the way the United States government set it up under Secretary of State Dean Acheson, was that in the event there is a matter affecting international peace and security, and at least one of the permanent members at the Security Council exercises a veto power over a resolution on that matter, when the resolution is introduced in the Security Council, the matter is then turned over to the United Nations General Assembly for action, for the General Assembly to decide what to do about it, in accordance with a two-thirds vote. So, the United States government originally introduced this. We conceived it and we applied it, regretfully, to North Korea.
And those economic sanctions are still strangling North Korea today, as we talk. And Trump is trying to escalate them. But in any event, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I think it’s only history, sort of cosmic blowback here, that a generation later the Palestinians and most of the rest of the world are using Uniting for Peace against the United States. This is our baby, as it were, and they are sticking it back to us.
DB: Alright, now let’s just talk a little bit about Jerusalem and what’s at stake here. Last we spoke, one of the things you said, and it’s very concerning and absolutely true, is that you were now fearing the deaths again of more Palestinians in this fight for liberation.
FB: And, it’s true, Dennis, […] in fairness, that Jews might die too.
DB: Yes. And things have been happening, clearly Palestinians have been dying. There have been attacks in the Gaza Strip. There have been some incidents from Palestinians coming at Jews, that’s a fact as well. But, always, it’s the Palestinians that lead the dying. And what I want you to talk about here is, because people still do not get it: What is at stake in Jerusalem here? What exactly is this about? And why will this be the line of resistance?
FB: Because, as you know, Jerusalem is the headquarters for the three great monotheistic faiths: Islam, Judaism, Christianity. And, especially, for the Muslims the Haram al-Sharif, the Noble Sanctuary, it’s the plateau over there. And that plateau is considered to be sacred. They have on there the Al-Aqsa Mosque, where Muslims used to direct their prayers before Mecca Medina. There is the Dome of the Rock where it is said Mohammed ascended into Heaven. And then you have the El Burka, which is the sort of “stand on the side” where Mohammed is said to have tied up his horse, when he miraculously flew from Arabia to Jerusalem, to make his ascent into Heaven.
So, on the Jewish side, you have the Wailing Wall. And, despite when everything is said, this is still Palestinian. It is protected under the Geneva Conventions, and also there’s a 1953 convention to which Israel is a party, protecting cultural religious sites in times of war. Although, I believe, that could easily be negotiated by simply setting up an easement so that Jews could go worship at the Wailing Wall. I don’t think Palestinians have any great desire to stop that, one way or the other. And then Christianity, of course, you have all the holy sites there, the Nativity, the Church of the Nativity, the Holy Sepulchre, etc.
So, it’s really the flashpoint for these three religions. Although, again, I did devise a proposal for the Palestinians that was approved by the PLO, on sharing Jerusalem as a capital between both Israel and Palestine, the two states. That would have to be subject to approval by the Security Council because Jerusalem still has a separate status under international laws of corpus separatum. But that would probably be approved.
And you can read that proposal that did have the approval of the PLO in my book “Palestine, Palestinians and International Law” along with the original memorandum I did for them going back to 1987. And then the Chair of the Palestinian delegation to the Middle East peace negotiations, my client and friend, the late, great Dr. Haidar Abdel-Shafi, instructed me to draw up the counter offer to Israel’s Oslo Bantustan [the Oslo Accords of 1993], which I did do. And that is published in there with Dr. Abdel-Shafi’s permission.
It was clear at the beginning that Oslo was pretty much a Bantustan, and so I advised all the Palestinians to that effect. And Abdel-Shafi then instructed me to come up with their counter offer which I did do. But that position did not prevail. Dr. Abdel-Shafi and I fought against Oslo to the bitter end. Then we lost, so there you go.
DB: Now, staying with Jerusalem, I think the statement made by Trump, even though it’s obviously a continuum of U.S. policy – Obama’s ambassador [Dan Shapiro] was no better, if not worse–but what’s going on on the ground in Jerusalem in the context of this statement, in other words, the continuing expansion of house demolitions, the attempt to put security devices, and set up a place to block Muslims from going to pray before making them go through a metal detector..that was going on in the recent past. The heat on this situation in Jerusalem has been high before this announcement. So, this is just sort of pushing it right at the edge, isn’t it?
FB: Right. Dennis, it’s really emboldening Netanyahu and his religious fanatics over there, who, by the way were complicit in the assassination of Prime Minister [Yitzhak] Rabin. Who was first and, so far, the only Prime Minister they’ve had over there who was interested in negotiating peace with the Palestinians and Syria, which is why they murdered him.
One of Islam’s holiest sites the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, seen through barbed wire.
So, yeah, this simply emboldens these people. And the real flashpoint is… Netanyahu permitting these fanatical, racist settlers to go onto Haram Al-Sharif [Temple Mount] itself, and storm Al-Aqsa Mosque. And, that is happening repeatedly. And it’s extremely dangerous and highly provocative. Because, at the end of the day, these people want to destroy Al-Aqsa and build their so-called third temple. And it would be a total catastrophe if this happens, because you’d have 1.5 billion Muslims in the world rising up in unison over this.
But that’s the real danger right now, I think, is the emboldenment of Netanyahu and these fanatical religious extremists, settlers that now believe they have a blank check to do whatever they want to do. And especially in Jerusalem and particularly the Haram Al-Sharif and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, yeah.
DB: And, I guess it should be of concern that Jared Kushner has a foundation that funds the building of settlements in the West Bank. I would think that that would be of concern to anybody thinking about any kind of negotiation, whatsoever. Not to mention the fact that Netanyahu would stay with the family at the Kushner house when he was in the U.S.
FB: Well, that’s correct. Kushner is aiding and abetting, by means of his foundation, he is aiding and abetting more crimes under the Hague Regulations of 1907, to which the United States government is a party, a violation of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, the four Geneva Conventions to which the United States is a party. And crimes against humanity as defined by the statute of the International Criminal Court. And the prosecutor, the International Criminal Court, is currently investigating war crimes, and crimes against humanity because of these settlements.
So, it’s impossible to think that a guy like Kushner could possibly serve as some type of mediator here, and it does look now, the Palestinians have decided to turn to Russia and China, and the United Nations to serve as mediators. Although I have to point out, Dennis, that I was involved as legal advisor to the Palestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Negotiations right from the very beginning there in Washington, D.C. in the fall of 1991, convened by President Bush, Sr., and the United States government has never served as an honest broker. They’ve always supported the Israeli position.
And, indeed, I think as I mentioned it before, Bush, Sr. put three American Jews in charge of the process, [Dennis] Ross, [Aaron David] Miller and [Daniel] Kurtzer. And they basically functioned as Israel’s lawyer. And, I believe, two of them were, still are, orthodox. I don’t think Ross is. And here we are, all these years later, now 2017 – that was 1991 – and nothing has changed because Trump has put Kushner, [David] Friedman and [Jason] Greenblatt as the so-called negotiators.
And here all three of them are orthodox. So, this situation is completely preposterous. How do you expect any negotiations to go on here – reasonable, fair negotiations? It’s not going to happen.
DB: And, I guess, that takes us back to Nikki Haley’s threatening statements today sounding like a bit of a mafioso captain warning any nation that would vote – I guess they didn’t have much of an impact on the vote – but clearly it’s got to be frightening if you’re a little nation that lives or dies based on U.S. aid and they’re saying you vote for this resolution in support of the Palestinians then we’re going to kill you. This is also not a good sign.
FB: Right, well without the Haley/Trump threats, I suspect the Palestinians would have also picked up the 35 abstentions, and maybe the no-shows. It appears several states just didn’t show up, because of these threats. So, basically it probably would have been – what, there’s 193 U.N. member states – so it probably would have been 185 to 9. But under United for Peace all they needed was two-thirds of those voting and abstentions didn’t count. So, there you are.
They have the votes, and indeed, they do have the votes to be admitted as a full-fledged U.N. member state based on this vote here. And the Trump/Haley threats, it does appear to me, they’ve got the votes to get admitted to the U.N., hopefully starting in January [2018]. There’s been a statement made that they will be submitting another resolution on their admission to the Security Council sometime in January. And, assuming the U.S. vetoes it, which it probably will under Trump, they can again invoke Uniting for Peace, and put it before the General Assembly.
Because, at the end of the day, in accordance with the terms of the United Nations charter, the Security Council only makes a recommendation on admission, not any decision. There’s a big difference between recommendations and decisions. And, also, under the terms of the United Nations charter, at the end of the day, it is the General Assembly that admits a member state, not the Security Council.
I had advised the Palestinians years go, they can do this, that they did try in 2012. And, at that point they decided just to go for observer state status. They’re going one step at a time, and we’ll have to see what their next step is.
I also noticed that, although I don’t have a list, but [Palestinian] President Abbas just exceeded to about 22 different treaties. I still haven’t gotten the names of those treaties. But that also goes back to our previous conversation on Jerusalem here on a legal intifada.
They will use their memberships in all these international organizations to further solidify and promote their statehood. And, the bottom line is, I think that’s positive, one, because even [Noam] Chomsky has pointed out, if the Palestinians keep going this way, at the end of the day you’ll have two states over there.
A Palestinian boy and Israeli soldier in front of the Israeli West Bank Barrier. August 17, 2004. (Photo by Justin McIntosh; Wikipedia)
Otherwise, I’m afraid we’re just going to have total chaos, and the Palestinians will be getting nothing more than a collection of little Bantustans. You remember, back in the days, Dennis, when we used to fight apartheid in South Africa. We had Transkei, Ciskei, and Bophuthatswana that weren’t even connected with each other. They were little bitty plots of land. And that’s pretty much what Israel has in mind here.
DB: And it is important to note those who fought that war against apartheid in South Africa are among the strongest supporters of the Palestinians. And they now say, and I pushed them on this, because I want to know if we’re talking hyperbole here, and they now say that the Palestinian situation is way worse, particularly in Gaza. Way worse than they ever had it in terms of the Bantustans that you were just referring to.
FB: That’s correct. And indeed, my friend, Professor John Dugard, who had been Special Rapporteur on Palestine is from South Africa. And he was one of a handful of white, international law professors over there with the courage, integrity and principles to oppose apartheid in South Africa, at risk to his life. And Dugard has said the same thing. If you want to look at… do a google on his name DUGARD.
And Dugard has said, and as you point out, other ANC leaders have said, that what the Palestinians are up against is far worse than what we were up against in the struggle against apartheid. You were involved, I was involved, many of us fought apartheid in South Africa. And we’re fighting apartheid over there [Palestine] today as well. The legal principles are pretty much the same.
DB: The legal principles are the same, but the uh… sort of the history and the details, or the situation, are quite a bit different. Israel and its lobby controls U.S. policy so they’re… all those anti-apartheiders have been fairly silent, wouldn’t you say?
FB: Well, we have the BDS campaign…
DB: Well, yes… no, no, this is the silver lining but I mean all those politicians, and all those civil rights activists, and all those folks… and you know I can go down the list, do not see… if you even bring that up, either the subject disappears or you’re considered an idiot, or a conspiracy theorist, over the top, whatever. When you make that parallel structure. I haven’t heard it on NPR, have you?
FB: You mean National Propaganda Radio, Dennis? But, look, I set up the Israeli divestment/disinvestment campaign, in November of 2000, because of my involvement in the divestment/disinvestment campaign here against apartheid South Africa, that was called for by a black lawyer who was ahead of me at Harvard Law School, Randal Robinson.
And looking into the situation, I concluded that the legal principles are the same. And, when I did this, I remember the president of Harvard, Larry Summers, condemned me, because I was involved in the Harvard divestment/disinvestment campaign, and accused me of being anti-semitic.
And WBUR, which is the NPR affiliate out there in Boston asked me to debate Summers and I said I would. And Summers did not have the courage, integrity or principles to debate me. As you know, eventually Harvard fired him because he publicly stated women are dumber than men when it comes to math and science. So, fine.
So I debated Alan Dershowitz on this, as far back as 2002. And, we had a debate and I won that debate. I clobbered Dershowitz. And in 2005 then-Palestinian civil society leaders contacted me and said “We really want to set up a BDS campaign, modeled on what the world did against apartheid South Africa. Boycott, divestment and sanctions, would you go in with us?” I said, “Sure.” So, I sort of surrendered the initiative to them.
But we’ve made an enormous amount of progress in these years. And, yes, the forces against us are substantial, and I guess more substantial than in apartheid South Africa.
Although thereto, as you note, the United States government fully supported apartheid South Africa, except during President Jimmy Carter. But all the rest of them supported it, up through and including Reagan, and the collapse of apartheid. So, when I set this thing up in 2000 I knew the forces against us would be formidable.
But the only progressive … change we’ve ever seen in this country, Dennis, in my lifetime, going back to the struggle for civil rights for black people, which I also supported, has come from the people, and grassroots movement. It has never come from Washington, D.C. And it certainly hasn’t come from the judiciary. It hasn’t come from Congress. It hasn’t come from the executive branch.
So, I think we’ve done a pretty good job in the BDS campaign, not just in this country, but worldwide. And it’s going to take more time. Israel is fighting it tooth and nail, as you know. They even set up a separate ministry over there, to counteract BDS. [Sheldon] Adelson is putting millions of dollars into the campaign.
But I think everyone who looks at it realizes they are losing, because we have truth and justice on our side. So we’re just going to have to keep plucking away, Dennis. People want to have peace with justice there for both Palestinians and Jews. It can be done. But we have a lot more work to do.
DB: Beautiful. Alright, well, Professor Boyle, as always we appreciate the good information, and the discussion about an issue that is really at the core, whether there’s going to be peace in this world.
FB: I do want to make one more point here which I think is very important. Back in 1991, I was advising both the Palestinian delegation and the Syrian delegation. And the Jordanians were prepared for peace but they couldn’t go first. And at that time Lebanon was occupied by Syria, so they basically did whatever the Syrians told them. So I was advising, at the same time, the two key actors here.
And I can assure you that if Israel had wanted peace back in 1991, with the Palestinians and with the Syrians, we could have had it. Because I knew the Palestinian bottom line, and I knew the Syrian bottom line, and I was drafting their documents. And, regretfully, they started under [former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak] Shamir, whose strategy was stall and delay. Then came Rabin, and he negotiated a comprehensive peace plan, agreement with Syria, full peace for full withdrawal. And he also did the Oslo Accord with the Palestinians. And then he was murdered.
DB: He was murdered by settlers. Let’s remind people. He was murdered by crazy…..
FB: Extremist settlers. And Netanyahu came to power and there’s been no peace, peace process to speak of, since then. Now that’s 1995. And here we are today. But I can say, based on my inside personal knowledge that peace was at hand, back at that point, at this early point. And, regretfully, we’re pretty far from it today.
Dennis J Bernstein is a host of “Flashpoints” on the Pacifica radio network and the author of Special Ed: Voices from a Hidden Classroom. You can access the audio archives at www.flashpoints.net.
That’s what a so-called LIBERAL news site in the Holy Shithole is saying. Imagine what the “right” is saying to each other.
http://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/counter-worldwide-solidarity/
Joe, today IS a “new reality”. Regime change is taking place in KSA and, would you believe, they are actually in direct discussions with Isreal. The U.S. is also under new management and, along with the rest of the world, want to see a PEACEFUL resolution to the plight of the Palestinians. I believe a ONE state solution to offer the best hope, IF the civil rights of the arab population are protected! You say “where’s the beef” for the arabs? It’s pressure (eg sanctions, funds restrictions) from the U.S., KSA, and the WORLD, aimed at BOTH sides to end APPARDHEIT. It might take time, but look at how long its taken already to get nowhere! It worked in South Africa WITHOUT a civil war, why not here?
If I’m a “troll”, it’s for people to learn to live together! FORGET “history”, it’s NOT helpful.
Fellow, unless you become a hell of a lot more specific, you are indeed a Troll. One state? WHERE? HOW?
Since you probably are a Troll, here is some news which ought to make you really happy. Dildo Trump is at it again.
Trump floats cutting payments to Palestinians
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/02/trump-palestinians-israel-jerusalem-320228
I’m not going to beat up on Trump voters, for I fully understand the choice we had back in 2016. But unless they’ve got their brains turned off, they must understand that Trump really is a clueless functional moron. If this goes through, all that will have been done is to grease the skids in turning the Palestinians on the stolen West Bank into inmates and victims in the second Israeli Open Air Genocide Camp. It’ll just be a larger one than Gaza.
We have yet to see if Trump is “clueless” or a good negotiator. Pressure must first be applied to the arabs to accept a “one-state” concept as a viable long-term solution, then apply an “all-out” anti-apartheid campaign for jewish commitment to arab civil rights. I believe we will see KSA push the arab position toward accepting the single state; followed by a global push on the jews to comply regarding arab rights.
Hopefully, time will heal all wounds.
Another non-answer regarding specifics. From the evidence of two posts now, you’re almost certainly a troll for the holy shithole.
That’s some wordy and meaningless BS.
“…holy sh*thole…? Try a little self-conTROLL! I bet you read mysterys’ from back to front as well. Adios Fencepost!
Sadat I have always advocated that Israel,should be one state with a democratic all encompassing population representative government to be the foundation to with this Middle East country could rest upon. It would not be slanted toward any religion or ethnicity, but instead to a secular style format as it’s voting base. People would be equal to each other, and everyone would be permitted to live wherever they would choose to rest their weary individual bones.
Sadat, if your saying what I’m saying then even the name Israel would be changed, within my own vision of this far away land we speak to. The new name should represent what the new equal opportunity country’s people would agree upon. I don’t which to be too opinionated since the people of that land should have the last and final sway, but no Zionist controlled government should have so much to say in a modern civilized world inside this 21st Century of ours. Joe
I TOTALLY agree with you, my friend!
Here is something to think about Sadat. and it was said by Jewish people;
“Israel is faced with two options: Continue to exist as a Jewish state while controlling the Palestinians through military force and racist laws, or undertake a deep transformation into a real democracy where Israelis and Palestinians live as equals in a shared state, their shared homeland. For Israelis and Palestinians alike, the latter path promises a bright future.” Miko Peled
“People who make use of all their senses in trying times are no less patriotic than those whose restraint is lost, whose senses are dimmed and whose brains are washed. This is also the time for the patriot to say: Enough.”
Gideon Levy, The Punishment of Gaza ”
If you Sadat are somewhere within the pages of these two Israeli’s then I would say that you and I agree. I hope so, because I’m losing faith in most of the human race for the lies and deceit that usually follows their hidden agendas. There again I want so bad to believe that most of mankind is good. Take care Sadat, and I would enjoy it if we were to be honest brokers with each other, and yes your friendship would be most valued. Joe
Israel/Palestine is NOW a single state with Jerusalem as its COMMON capitol. No sense arguing about West Bank or Gaza; it’s all ONE state. The arabs have reclaimed Palestine, and the jews have a larger country; WIN/WIN! The NEXT step is to focus on APPARDHEIT; we have precident for that.
The Hasbara troll army has been marching up and down the internet with “Hail victory!” salutes for the Trump-Netanyahu co-regime’s Jerusalem gambit: a “one-state” version of “Greater Israel”
“No sense arguing…”
https://blog.codinghorror.com/content/images/2015/04/obvious-troll-is-obvious.jpg
Of course, this glorious Anschluss requires a new war to enforce the necessary demographic adjustments (via ethnic cleansing and wartime “security” measures) fully “secure the realm”.
We definitely have precedent for this.
Like that “final solution” effort of 75 years ago, the Israeli racial state’s Kampf for “One People, One Nation, One Leader” is a sure path to catastrophic war.
Two-faced troll – anti-Hasbara Sadat
I think your pot dealer sold you some bad weed. You might just find it worth writing up a new resume, leaving out the ‘troll’ part of your career of course, and get into a new line of work. Although I’m sure a Palestinian would find your analysis of the ‘win-win’ factor in your comment a thrilling event to behold, but then ask, ‘where’s the beef’. Sadat, although I find your comment to be profoundly bazaar, the Neocon’s would love you for how you create you own new reality. So, Sadat all is not loss with you insane comment. Nikki awaits your beckoning call. Have fun. Joe
Thanks for those last two links Joe. I know you are quite a reader, and think you will be interested in the following:
https://zeroanthropology.net/2017/12/28/populism-nationalism-globalization-and-imperialism-a-thick-review-of-2017/
A very good review of 2017 with a tremendous amount of links to articles I would have not otherwise come across.
Gregory I’m loving this site you linked me to, and while I’m still in the process of reading the linked article, the author so far is doing a great job of recapping Trump’s first year in office.
I’m leaving a link to Juan Cole’s website. Although I don’t always see eye to eye with the good Professor Cole, I like sometimes writing my opinions in his comment section. Bill Bodden and I use to write in Professor Cole’s comment section, and with the passing of Bill this past year I can honestly say I miss Bill’s well thought out opinions.
https://www.juancole.com/2017/12/actually-iranian-protesters.html
Other than that Gregory enjoy the new year. Joe
Maximilian Forte has certainly put together a superb review with a treasure trove of sources including some from Consortium News plus a favorite John Pilger piece, an important statement from Cornel West, and so much more.
Professor Cole did a good job of expressing the bankruptcy of Trump’s purported “concern” for Iranian dissidents. Importantly, he brought up the matter of sanctions–which always end up having heinous impacts on general populations. I enjoyed your response as well and think you are on to something important. The raised ante of in-your-face American bellicosity combined with the rise of the Eurasian Economic Union and the ever more obvious tragic results of American “foreign policy” is fast eroding the credibility or cooperation the rest of the world may be willing to grant us going forward.
It’s good of you to keep Bill Bodden in our thoughts. He was a friend of peace and justice.
While I’m here Joe I’d like to leave a link to a film about Putin that I find well worthwhile.
https://neopelagius.wordpress.com/2017/12/10/watch-the-president-a-profile-of-vladimir-putin-from-russian-tv/
Natylie Baldwin’s travel essay also provides terrific insight:
http://natyliesbaldwin.com/2017/12/springtime-in-russia-may-2017/
Holy cow Gregory your batting a thousand percent with your links, as I really enjoyed watching the Putin documentary, and Natylie Baldwin’s essay (I really like reading her articles).
When watching the Putin documentary I could not help but think of how the MSM and certain DC politicians demonize this guy. I think these scumbag politicians of ours are highly intimidated by Putin’s leadership. If more Americans were to get the honest truth about Vladimir Putin, then they would be rallying behind someone, or anyone, who would seem likely to be cast in the same mold as he. In plain sailor talk, these DC politicians couldn’t put a patch on Putin’s ass if that’s what all it would take to save themselves from the burning flames of hell.
So Gregory you gave me a nice start for the new year, and I appreciate your aid….because of you I learned something new today. Joe
100 points for Sadat. What he says is absolutely my plan. My chosen are to introduce my character to all the nations. The Palestinians will now be under my umbrella of protection. If my chosen misrepresent my character in my land of peace and harmony I will come against them swiftly and severely.
Oy Yaweh – Hasbara/anti-Hasbara
Here Martin Berger reveals how ‘not well’ the U.S. is doing up against the many questioning of U.S. actions, and how the U.S. is losing support as it rains down havoc and chaos all in the name of spreading more freedom and democracy through out this world.
https://journal-neo.org/2017/12/30/americas-moral-authority-no-more/
Here Daniel Haiphong goes into a worthy congratulations over the loss of U.S. imperialism.
https://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-asia/war-on-yemen/2074-holiday-gift-to-yemen.html
Wayne Madsen does a great job of comparing modern day Trump’s America to the days of America’s past of when the Native American was forced off of his land. Madsen starts out by talking about Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/12/30/united-states-destroyer-of-nations.html
I’m not very informed about early US history, but with my limited knowledge I’d maintain Haiti was the first nation destroyed by the US.
https://iacenter.org/haiti/embargoes.htm
Way back in 1969 I got a peek at Haitian life on a Liberty Leave from the USS Boxer, and I was shocked then at the Haitian citizens standards of living under Papa Doc. The one thing that still sticks in my head, is how the Haitian people were like truly the nicest people I had ever met. It just doesn’t seem fair.
Jefferson gives every meaning to the saying, ‘the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree’, does he? Then you wonder where these younger politicians get it from…I’ll tell ya Twain was right about the rhyming thing, and it’s in their generational political genes. In Pittsburgh we call them, ‘JagOff’s’.
Joe, an awful lot of the internet sites I read are taking a “Holiday Break” until the first of the year. Its aggravating from a reader’s point of view, but in their place I’d sure be doing it!
Regarding Mr. Parry, I hope he remains very cautious in all things. ALL things!
Zachary you said what my wife said. I guess I’m a Scrooge of some kind, and didn’t think about holiday vacations. Well that’s me. Zachary while I’m at it I want you to take it easy, and for you to enjoy the new year. Joe
I’m hoping all is well with Robert Parry, because this article was posted 12/27/17 as this is a long stretch between posting articles for consortiumnews.
Stay at home mom Kelly Richards from New York after resigning from her full time job managed to average from $6000-$8000 a month from freelancing at home… This is how she done it
??????
Is their anyone left on the planet who is not aware that many Middle Easterner’s have been, and will be, killed for their belief’s in Anti Western Imperialism?
.. So, why pretend that it’s a State Capital that is objective? Why not just have a Palestinian sponsored Goldman Sachs move in??
~~~
‘Blankfein Says He’s Just Doing ‘God’s Work’
November 9, 2009
“The chief executive of Goldman Sachs, which has attracted widespread media attention over the size of its staff bonuses, says he believes banks serve a social purpose and are “doing God’s work.”
“We’re very important,” Lloyd C. Blankfein said in an interview with The Times of London. “We help companies to grow by helping them to raise capital. Companies that grow create wealth. This, in turn, allows people to have jobs that create more growth and more wealth. It’s a virtuous cycle.”
The dominant Wall Street bank posted third-quarter earnings of $3 billion and plans to hand out more than $16 billion in year-end bonuses.
“We have a social purpose,” he told the newspaper.
Mr. Blankfein also defended the firm’s compensation, saying that the practices correlated with long-term performance.
“Others made no money and still paid large bonuses. Some are not around anymore,” he said. “I wonder why?”
He said that he understood, however, that people were angry with bankers’ actions: “I know I could slit my wrists and people would cheer.”
But he is, he told The Times, just a banker “doing God’s work.””
~~~
Now, the Israelis (..Western Powers..) for 70 years, they won’t let the Palestinians have any industries. (..just like every “Leftist” country..) .. And, the Israelis are to cruel to even use them as their “migrant” labor.. .. So, maybe it’s time the Elites use the same lie on them, as they use on us.. .. that is “If you want a job, then make us even richer..” .. Just like here in the States, this will buy every one a few years, until stench of that old lie, becomes so bad, that we all need to have another one fabricated.
… The jig is up on all of the Security Councils Western Democracy’s. .. They all, quite desperately, have to have a second Party.
I learn incredible new things every time I read thiis paper. So in 1991, there was almost peace, but then Zionists murdered the Prime Minister to stop it? WTF?!?
Thanks for the education. Will donate more today to show appreciation.
Hi NavyVet-
Yes, CN is my favorite site. I am always learning here, and getting good links from fellow commenters, along with recommended books. I share with some friends and family by email articles that I find particularly informative as an important antidote from MSM propaganda. So welcome, have a Happy New Year, and spread the word. Hopefully CN’s readership will grow and be a real thorn in the side of the establishment.
Hey Skip save a seat for me, and we olé salts could compete to see which one of us got the better ‘Whales Tale’ to tell. Joe
Just a suggestion, NOT a criticism, but perhaps someday someone can do an analysis on what broader recognition of Palestine as a state, and its deeper inclusion into international orgs means within the context of the one state outcome.
I always get the sense that these discussions about Palestinian statehood have an eye toward perpetuating the notion of a sovereign Palestine existing alongside Israel. Near as I can tell, Palestinians are almost equally divided on which outcome is now preferred, practical, and/or realistic. This divide appears to be largely along age lines, so contemplating Palestine as a state, within the effect that might have on a one-state outcome, is almost by definition a nod to approaching, accepted (tactical?) reality – in Palestine.
To me Palestinian statehood is a “fact” that is parallel to, but independent of, one or two states. It’s just enhanced platform (Israel-occupied Palestine!) and/or increased parity/standing/leverage to press for whatever situational need (equal rights or Jerusalem as capital) facilitates either, mutually-exclusive reality.
As an example, the “the occupied territories” schtick completely masks the fact that Israel is inexorably assimilating and annexing the STATE of PALESTINE, not some “disputed,” nondescript parcel of land somewhere (the proverbial, vile “land without a people…” narrative). This, imo, can provide historical precedent for solutions where other COUNTRIES have been assimilated by conquest and what happened (good or bad) to the citizens in those circumstances. If it’s good precedent, great. If it’s bad precedent, it provides the insight and opportunity for a forward-looking strategic/tactical adjustment by the Palestinians and supporters.
To bring it back on topic, I can’t recall any situation in 70++ years where Israeli colonization and annexation (let’s just call it what it is) of Palestine has been reversed. So Trump’s embassy move almost certainly means Jerusalem is gone for a sovereign Palestine. Does that mean that the concept of a viable, sovereign Palestine is gone? I think it does, but that’s just me. Per this article, and pretty much everything else I’ve read about this move, there seems to be a highly-touted “solidification” of [vocal] support against this move. Great. When this move gets reversed in the next couple (2) months (after that, its a done deal/irreversible imo) because of this clamor against it, I’ll eat these words (i.e. action required; immediate shedding of lip-service as principle SOP on Palestine). Unfortunately this “solidification” of support seems like wholly, historically-inconsequential, two-state nostalgia (and/or target fixation) and not forward-looking behavior which can guide change.
FWIW…
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/29/israel-sports-minister-forces-nba-website-to-remove-palestine-occupied-jerusalem-trump
Thanks Zachary. Wow.
Want to change that National Basketball Association decision (and any other capitulation to the Israeli Apartheid regime) quickly?
Don’t simply report the fact.
Make it loud and clear that the capitulators, in this case the NBA and its corporate sponsors, will pay a definite financial and public relations price for their very poor decision.
Then take action:
– Boycott NBA games and let everyone know why!
– Contact the corporate sponsors of NBA events and make it clear that you won’t purchase products or services from companies who submit to Israeli Apartheid discrimination, or enable Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory in violation of international law.
– Let the NBA and its corporate sponsors know you’re going to raise a ruckus… and actually do it.
– Blog about the NBA decision.
– Post about the NBA decision on Facebook.
– Post videos expressing your view of the NBA decision on YouTube.
– Support local, state, and international BDS initiatives.
– Get educated about the workings of the Israeli Apartheid regime.
– Host an in-person or online teach-in on the Israeli Apartheid regime that focuses on the intimidation of the NBA by the Israeli government.
Or you can continue to sit on your butt and read all about it.
Make the choice to get active.
Israeli government practices, both toward non-Jewish citizens of Israel and in the occupied Palestinian territories, correlate almost entirely with the definition of apartheid as established in Article 2 of the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid.
Comparison to South African laws and practices by the apartheid regime also found strong correlations with Israeli practices, including violations of international standards for due process (such as illegal detention); discriminatory privileges based on ascribed ethnicity (legally, as Jewish or non-Jewish); draconian enforced ethnic segregation in all parts of life, including by confining groups to ethnic reserves and ghettos; comprehensive restrictions on individual freedoms, such as movement and expression; a dual legal system based on ethno-national identity (Jewish or Palestinian); denationalization (denial of citizenship); and a special system of laws designed selectively to punish any Palestinian resistance to the system.
Israeli non-Jewish citizens are restricted to second-class citizen status. Jewish Israelis monopolize state power through legal prohibitions on access to land, unequal allocation of civil service positions, discriminatory per capita expenditure on education, and other means.
Israeli Apartheid will not end voluntarily.
Support the global Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement in opposition to the Apartheid regime in Israel.
Negotiations to end Apartheid in South Africa took place against a backdrop of mass action in the country. As in South Africa, where white right-wingers brought the country to the brink of disaster, Israeli right-wing Jewish racist extremists threaten chaos and violence.
Dismantling Israeli Apartheid will require negotiation of numerous issues including full rights for minority citizens, decisions on a unitary or federal state, property rights, and indemnity from prosecution for politically motivated crimes committed during the Israeli Apartheid era.
Israeli minister forces NBA website to remove phrase ‘occupied territory’
Down in the article is this reasoning:
Trump hands Jerusalem to Israel on a silver platter, Israel gratefully accepts all the illegally occupied lands. It’s a Zionist version of “give ’em an inch and they’ll take a mile”
Yahweh and Trump – both extraordinarily generous with other people’s property.
BTW, this Miri Regev person is the same one demanding that the next person resisting an IDF assault be shot on the spot. None of this is too surprising to poor folks in the US when they have the misfortune of running into Israel-Trained Militarized Police. Shoot first, then consult the standard “excuse” manual for explaining why the dead body is lying in a pool of blood in the street.
IDF: “My masculinity was under threat”
US Police: “I was fearful for my life when I saw the black face…..”
@Anon…
“Its good. The hegemon is no more, and best of all, with the cutting of funds Trump has just killed UN agenda 2020 and the globalist dream of world domination.”
The US, and most of the media, makes it sound like that the cuts are for voting against the US on Jerusalem and to increase efficiency of the operation. In actuality, it’s quite different. It is just a coincidence, due to the new budget approaching, and certainly reported incorrectly by the media….
The UN Secretary General (SG) started the budget process beginning of this year and requested 5% cut across the board. The US has insisted, perhaps more forcefully than other member states, to slash the budget even more and the result is lower budget than the SG proposed. As such, the US share of the UN general budget is lower than it has been in previous years. Once the budget process finalized, it has been signed off by a General Assembly (GA) resolution, that had become binding for all member states.
Please keep in mind that not all GA resolution is binding, such as the GA resolution for Jerusalem, but the GA budget resolution is.
You have a good point, Ted Parker, Americans have been manipulated very well to accept guns and war as necessary. The human mind is readily programmed, psychology shows, and thinking outside the box is relatively unusual, especially when the box is a television.
When you read Americans comments on any article, and realize most Americans believe blowing up people is the answer, it makes you realize how hopeless a logical conversation on anything is. Americans in general have no interest in diplomacy but believe only in tattoos and guns
what “logical” thing do you want to discuss?! You have provided nothing……………
Thanks, Joe, some good and some bad in that story, it’s too bad people get so indoctrinated by politics. And Jessejean, abandon that nerd Chris Hayes to watch Tucker Carlson on Fox, who’s a conservative independent but much more entertaining. I don’t agree with Tucker on many issues, but his show is more interesting and witty than “All In” and he regularly denounces Russiagate as political fabrication. He doesn’t touch Israel, though, mostly social and economic issues, per network orders. His innuendos show he doesn’t believe the GOP tax plan will benefit the middle class.
A good case in point, Jessica, was when Carlson had Adam Schiff on the program. Schiff accused Carlson of “carrying water for the Kremlin” and said he’ll soon have to move his program to “RT, Russian television”. Carlson remained adamant about the need for evidence when “making serious allegations” and had exposed Schiff for the weasel that he is when pressing him about the right of Americans to know the content of the alleged “hacking”.
http://youtu.be/KAq9hgTLAZ8
This type of “reverberation” is exactly what Susan Sarandon predicted on All In before the election that that vapid little wanker Chris Hayes mocked her for. And tonight I just heard him use that same idea in a question to a guest as if it were his own idea. And of course the two “men” then moofed and hmmmed around on that notion without ONCE mentioning Susan’s prescience. Chris Hayes–ugh and puke.
Joe, i also wish a wake-up for Americans to understand how controlled we are in the US matrix.
On RT just saw a story that 63 Israeli high schoolers sent a letter to Netanyahu and other Israeli officials saying they will refuse to enlist in IDF even at risk of prison. (It came up on my Google stories and shortly after was swiped away by Google.)
We all just have to continue to speak up, regardless. Best wishes to you for an enlightened 2018, too, Joe. (65% of Americans believe a coverup on JFK assassination, e.g.)
Here’s something you might take interest in Jessica.
https://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-asia/palestine/2071-ahed-tamimi-ben-caspit.html
2017 – 1987 = 30 years of basically running in circles with minimal accomplishments and more flashpoints.
Perhaps the problem is a lack of leadership in religion and government on all sides. And the rule of men and women without actual leadership skill.
Only a lack of leadership would explain such incompetence and getting next to nothing accomplished for 30 YEARS!
Let’s face it, the UN is a useless organization. The proof is in what they, and their squid-like tentacles, have actually done over the years – e.g. “peacekeepers” that rape starving children, “peacekeepers” that rape and exploit women in war-torn areas, money laundering, corruption, putting Saudi Arabia on the human rights council, etc.
Time for the UN to go and for each country to create its own agreements between other countries. The UN is a globalist organization that does not actually care about the rights of anyone except elites.
That is fact – the proof is in their actions and in the behavior of their operatives.
The UN is most certainly useful, although it has been made less useful in recent years, when in an orgy of triumphalism after the dissolution of the USSR, the US decided it didn’t need to play by any rules, the UN’s or any one else’s.
The UN should be a mediator between nations and should serve as the repository for all treaties between countries. The UN’s role should not included: 1) sending in peacekeepers, 2) humanitarian aid, 3) issuing edicts regarding the actions of other countries, and 4) having offices all around the world.
Because:
1) Basically every country on this planet has a military – so these peacekeepers are redundant and are known rapist and are known to be in disarray – which means that their actual skill in their mission is not adequate – thus, they need to go.
2) There are scores of humanitarian aid groups around the world that do a much better job.
3) Every country can weigh in on what they think about a particular action on their own. We don’t need a “vote”.
4) If the UN was scaled back to one office on every continent it could keep negotiators in those offices and cut back on the money being spent – all this “office” money is not actually HELPING ANYONE!
5) Citizens of the world know the true reason for the UN is global government – and this is a bad idea because EVERY GOVERNMENT ON THIS PLANET is an ABJECT FAILURE! GLOBAL GOVERNMENT WILL BE THE DEATH OF HUMAN KIND!
So the UN as we know it MUST GO! It is a bureaucratic, money sucking organization that has proven OVER AND OVER AGAIN that actually helping people in need is not its TRUE mission – otherwise it would not have turned a blind eye or tried to silence those reporting on the rape of children, the sex trafficking, and the corruption.
For example – watch the movie The Whistleblower – and you will get a taste of what the UN is actually about.
Hey Lucy after reading your very logical analysis of the UN I saw this JFK speech to the UN from 1961, and thought of how you may enjoy reading it. Although by the sounds of it, JFK’s speech maybe old news to you, but never the less I though of you after reading your comments here. Joe
https://www.globalresearch.ca/john-f-kennedy-on-nuclear-war-and-the-threats-to-world-peace-together-we-shall-save-our-planet-or-we-shall-perish-in-its-flames/5624188
I’m with Anon that it’s good the US empire is declining because of its bad bully behavior, although the wounded beast will continue to fight in whatever way possible. From GWB with his idiotic proclamation of a “New Crusade” to Trump (and Haley) as stooge of Israel, no wonder the rest of the world is waked up. There’s absolutely no surprise that Americans don’t know the facts of USS Liberty and Israel, considering what they don’t know about some very basic facts, Joe. Some had no clue about the American Civil War, demonstrated on YouTube as “idiot America”.
Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free Paperback – May 4, 2010
by Charles P. Pierce (
I agree Jessica, but don’t you think it’s time they learn the truth?
Hope all is well with you Jessica, and hope the coming year is a good one for you. Joe
Joe,
Idiots NEVER learn because they are immune to using their brains………..they will just destroy themselves and the Israelis will help them achieve that…………….
I think you are right.
Well Joe, I read the article and I’m leary of an article that seems to have an agenda which is to place almost full blame for the USS Liberty attack on Johnson and his political agenda. It is so anti-Johnson that it reminded me of the rhetoric employed by mainstream media today that attacks Trump as a mad man and is willing to engage in false allegations in order to oust him from office, and of course I’m referring to Russia-gate. Not that I’m any fan of Trump. It’s hard to believe that with the Vietnam war going badly he would instigate a nuclear war in the Middle East, by nuking Egypt and blaming the Russians for the attack on the Liberty. That could have set off a nuclear third world war. Why would Israel be so crazy to even buy into that?
Yes, if Israel were to wish to shift the blame then exposing LBJ would make sense, from the Israeli point of view. From what I know the mentioning of ‘Operation Cyanide’ is a much newer thing to be reported concerning the USS Liberty. I’m not real sure if this Operations exposure were efforts retained by the FOIA either, so proceed with caution. So Annie we should question that part of the USS Liberty story.
What we do know, and what Israel should not escape the spotlight of it, is that Israel attacked the USS Liberty on June 8 of 1967, killing 34 US Sailors and wounding 174 other crew members. Admiral John McCain commandeered the coverup, while Admiral Thomas Moorer went to his grave lamenting to avenge the U.S. Governments decision to accept such and fate, and be done with it.
It’s good that you question things Annie. Joe
I’m with you Annie. American military personnel in the region intercepted messages from the Israeli pilots, and some Israeli pilots too, have admitted, in their conversation they asked their head in Israel if they were to continue the attack because the ship (Liberty) was American, and they were told to continue. From what I’ve read the Israelis were given a green light to attack Egypt (US disliked Egyptian nationalism), which they did. They took out the air-force and knew the ground forces were insufficient to attack, and then their plan was to take down Syria but that would mean moving their forces north and they didn’t want the Americans to know before hand and kill their plans.
Jessica, Joe, Annie et al:
As I noted above, the article from the National Vanguard site demonstrates how facts about the USS Liberty have been used by both real racist and fake “racist” individuals and groups.
It is important to emphasize that the USS Liberty Veterans Association specifically rejects the “despicable agenda” of such groups.
Real racist groups like National Vanguard and Inverted Hasbara false flag “racist” propagandists both attempt to exploit the sacrifice of those Americans who served aboard the USS Liberty.
Peter Hounam, author of Operation Cyanide: Why the Bombing of the USS Liberty Nearly Caused World War III (2003), claimed that secret elements within the US and Israeli governments colluded to bomb the ship
According to Hounam, the USS Liberty attack by Israel was pre-planned with the connivance of President Johnson and the intention was to sink the ship and kill everyone on board, and blame the attack on Egypt and their superpower ally, the Soviet Union, triggering massive retaliation which would ensure Israeli victory.
Hounam claimed that the plan was aborted as the Liberty remained afloat, and the alleged scheme has been hushed up ever since.
Interestingly, the Liberty Veterans Association site does not reference Hounam’s work in its list of books about the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.
From a review of the book:
“This is an excellent book and I highly recommend it. The author starts off in the introduction with the story of former Air Force pilot Jim Nanjo who flew a nuclear loaded B-52 for the Strategic Air Command.
On June 8th, between 2 and 4 AM California Pacific time, Jim Nanjo and his bomber group were awakened by an alarm and where in their planes within 3 minutes. The USS Liberty was attacked at 5AM California Pacific time. Did you catch that? The US nuclear bomber plans were scrambled in a massive alert 1-3 hours BEFORE the international incident attack on the USS Liberty by Israel.”
Hounam made a companion documentary:
http://youtu.be/kjOH1XMAwZA
Great stuff, thanks Abe.
Hey Annie, I’m leaving a link to a Jeffrey St Clair article regarding the USS Liberty.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/02/infamy-at-sea-israels-attack-on-the-uss-liberty-50-years-later/
Also do a search right here on consortiumnews where Ray McGovern writes some of the best you will ever read concerning the happenings of that fateful day June 8 1967.
Like everything else Annie, as you know, to get to the truth one must dig, and dig a little deeper, but then it finally comes down to what you find credible enough to believe. I do believe that for the Israeli’s to make such a bold move by bombing a US Naval vessel, that there must have been some behind the curtain permission granted from Washington. I’m not saying this to let Israel off the hook. Instead I’m saying this, because between all of what you will read to what happened to the USS Liberty, it would have been a fool’s foley by Israel to just up and attack a US intelligence ship.
So if you believe the Israeli’s knew that the USS Liberty was an American ship of war, then why would the Israeli’s attack it? I also don’t think that our questioning of what LBJ knew, and when he knew it disavows Israel’s involvement. This attack was, or at least may have been a joint venture by LBJ/McNamara & the Israeli Military….plain and simple.
Sorry I can’t confirm for sure to what happened, or to how it happened, but somewhere out there lies the truth, and we you and me Annie need to find it. After that let’s come to the conclusion to who really pulled the trigger killing JFK, MLK, Malcolm X, RFK, etc., etc.. welcome to conspiracy America, so what else is new.
Just thought you may find these comments of mind interesting, hope you did. Joe
Jeffrey St Clair notes that while the first attack wave of Israeli warplanes fired rockets and machine guns, the second wave of jets “not only pelted the ship with gunfire but also with napalm bomblets, coating the deck with the flaming jelly.”
St Clair reports that the Navy Court of Inquiry “refused to accept evidence about the IDF’s use of napalm during the attacks and choose not to hear testimony regarding the duration of the attacks and the fact that the US Navy failed to send planes to defend the ship.”
On 10 October 2003, The Jerusalem Post ran an interview with Yiftah Spector, one of the pilots who participated in the attack, and thought to be the lead pilot of the first wave of aircraft. Spector said the ship was assumed to be Egyptian, stating that: “I circled it twice and it did not fire on me. My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively no flag.” The interview also contains the transcripts of the Israeli communications about the Liberty. The journalist who transcribed the tapes for that article, Arieh O’Sullivan, later confirmed that “the Israeli Air Force tapes he listened to contained blank spaces.”
The Liberty’s survivors contradict Spector. According to subsequently declassified NSA documents: “Every official interview of numerous Liberty crewmen gave consistent evidence that indeed the Liberty was flying an American flag—and, further, the weather conditions were ideal to ensure its easy observance and identification.”
On 8 June 2005, the USS Liberty Veterans Association filed a “Report of War Crimes Committed Against the U.S. Military, June 8, 1967” with the Department of Defense (DoD). They say Department of Defense Directive 2311.01E requires the Department of Defense to conduct a thorough investigation of the allegations contained in their report.
DoD has responded that a new investigation would not be conducted since the Navy Court of Inquiry already investigated the facts and circumstances surrounding the attack.
On 2 October 2007, The Chicago Tribune published a special report into the attack, containing numerous previously unreported quotes from former military personnel with first-hand knowledge of the incident. Many of these quotes directly contradict the NSA’s position that it never intercepted the communications of the attacking Israeli pilots, saying that not only did transcripts of those communications exist, but also that it showed the Israelis knew they were attacking an American naval vessel.
Abe–
I viewed the BBC documentary based on Hounam’s research last evening. The compelling nature of the subject matter, the actual footage, and the many interviews haven’t left the back of my mind since. One reviewer of the documentary who had also read Hounam’s book noted that, although the documentary was well done, it was “watered down”.
It certainly is established that the attack was not a case of mistaken identity and was intended to sink the ship without communications or witnesses. It is also established that when communications to the 6th fleet did thankfully occur, the rescue mission was aborted by McNamara. As per protocol, the man in charge of the rescue mission had the option of appealing to a higher authority–President Johnson–and he did so. So Johnson himself was forced to personally order the 6th Fleet to abort the rescue mission a second time (saying he didn’t give a g.d. if the ship sunk).
It is also established that press releases were constrained and the NSA and U.S. military conducted a cover-up “investigation” and hush-up of the whole affair.
Apparently Hounam’s book implicates Johnson as participating with elements of the CIA and the Israeli government in a false-flag plot. That may sound like a big stretch to some, but from what I understand, Johnson was indeed a very sick man–and I put little if nothing past the Israeli government or the CIA. It seems to me that if Jim Nanjo’s recollections are correct and documentable, then foreknowledge may indeed be part of the equation. It also seems to me improbable to highly unlikely that Israel would knowingly attack an American ship (particularly at a point at whichthe Six Day War was pretty much won and with a “friend” in the White House). There has to be an explanation for this–and of course “mistake” doesn’t cut it.
My questions for you Abe are: Have you read the book? Are Hounam’s contentions plausible and/or backed by any evidence?
..would knowingly attack an American ship….
I should have added: “…without knowing Israel would not be blamed or suffer consequences.”
I recall his crusader[1] and his Hatfield-McCoy[2] cultural-political flat-world rhetoric. They echo, in various ways, through ensuing administrations and now with the fallacious economic dimension in Trump’s National Security Strategy speech and trickle-down tax reform. It’s unproductive for all, but a few around the world. It seems that the public[3] cannot help from being distracted by popular themes[4].
[1] 9/11 George Bush – This Crusade Is Gonna Take A While ( Sept 17 2001) | Youtube.
[2] Either With Us Or With The Terrorists – Bush | Youtube
[3] The Crowd | Gustave Le Bon | 1895
[4] Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds | Charles Mackay | 1841
Trump can have a say about whatever he inherited from his mother but when it comes to the Muslim World, he or even the rest of the world will not have the final word. He thinks that the forty or so individuals who met him in Saudi Arabia represent Muslims!! It is another proof that when it comes to Islam, the West never learns!! Westerners should go study the Crusades and see what happened in the end…………….
Joe….
After the tax law changes, the American people want to hold on to their two cents…
The Israeli lobbying can only be stopped by politicians and that’s not going to happen anytime soon. First, doing so would be cutting off the free flow of money and second, anyone voting for that would effectively end his/her political career.
American people have nothing to do with what’s going on in DC, well, except around election times. This is actually said since the rest of the world still views the US, more or less, as the beacon of democracy and freedom. As such, the general consensus is, that since the US Government unconditionally support Israel, then the American people do too. Far from it, but perception is perception…
And Annie is right, most of the people in the US are more interested in the POTUS golf outings and his wife’s dresses. The “we are doomed” is an understatement…
You got it right, but it would be nice to if the American people truly understood America’s commitment to Israel. Thanks for the input Al. Joe
The bigger irony is that neo progressives continue insisting on inventing reasons why the Trump presidency is not the colossal disaster and political, cultural, and economic extremist rapture that it represents.
Ruthless violence, lies, and evil rule the world. Love, justice, peace, and fairness play no part in the machinations of the powerful, except as deceptions to further their vicious, evil plans. Whether humankind can survive the madness of it’s would be rulers is very doubtful at this point. Science has put in the hands of these power perverts the means to destroy us all, and they show no signs of relinquishing these fatal poisons. The increasing inability of the peaceful to overcome the violent will probably condemn our species to a horrible death. Our failure is essentially an inner spiritual and moral failure, which is well on it’s way to becoming final. On our collective tombstone may be written: THEY FAILED TO LEARN TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
I am not sure I agree with some of the comments here and although I appreciate the historical and legal details offered by D J Bernstein and Francis Boyle, I don think it matters what international law is.. The UN is at the same juncture that the Articles of Confederation government was in 1789, to keep going it had to agree to the demands of those who had the bread, and since it could not, the US Constitution dissolved it. Zionism is lawfully constrained only at points that just exceed the limits of the wants of Zionist.
The TKNSS Sanctionary plan designed to jettison Palestinians from Israel to the Ghettos of the Sinai.
BACKGROUND: I keep on saying folks, bankers, slave traders and oil interest planned back in 1860s to take the oil rich lands of the Arabs. They organized this goal into a plan at the first Zionist congress (1897) they decided to use the Jewish plight, as a carrier frequency, to rouse the attentions, contributions and sympathies of the world in the largest land mineral theft ever, a massive, propaganda directed, Zionist wealth powered, Jewish exodus was globally and dynamically promoted to move Jews from Eastern Europe, Russia and else where into the oil rich Arab lands. The vision to change the land ownership by taking deed possession of the oil rich Arab lands(see Palin Commission history for the bloody details between 1909 and 1948). Israel itself came about because the Jewish settlements needed Jewish biased protection that the British were unwilling to provide. Hence a military with Nation state powers (1948 Israel) became essential to the success of the take the oil plan. The target is not the Palestinians, not the Arabs but the middle east oil rich lands. The one state vs two state, Sunni vs Shia, Jew vs Arab stuff is just part of the divide and conquer strategies used to further the theft of the oil. The recent success of the Palestinians has forced TKNSS to come up with a way to save control of tIsrael and the oil it protects.
SANCTUARY: Trump (USA), Kushner(Trumptail), Netanyoyu(ISRAEL), MBS (SAUDI ARABIA), SISI (Egypt) (TKNSS) are executing the “Israel is a protected Sanctuary” plan; basically run every non Jew out of the main Jewish base (Jews and Arabs are sea saw divide and conquer victims of Zionism. The goal is oil not Palestinian or Israeli, its oil). Discriminatory population laws and state harassment strategies impart discouragement and ”dis-possess by deed the mass of Palestinian occupants from their homeland. A single democratic non racial state incorporating both Israelis and Palestinians would by population distribution alone dispossess the Israelis (Zion c/n allow its power derived by its control in Israel to revert to Palestinian voters); The TKNSS solution: spin the Palestinians off from Israel (so Palestinians cannot vote in Israel) and merge them with Jewish settlements that surround Palestinian towns and cities, in the Sinai, into a 2nd independent state, and use the Jordan puppet to Israel government, to rule the 2nd state. Might want to read this long time ago article http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/cambell/11720.htm
PRO-ISRAEL FORCES WANT TO RE-OPEN A PIPELINE FROM IRAQ TO HAIFA, ISRAEL invasion to Iraq article.
Thanks for the very enlightening article.. particularly the legal background of the Palestinian struggle.
I’m not sure I agree with you about plans in 1860 to take oil rich lands in the middle East, Fudmier. Way back then America was awash with oil and had hardly tapped their own huge reserves. I don’t know when the Americans started to realise they were using more oil than they had themselves but I should think it was somewhere between the two wars. History is an account of what happened in the passed but its the future we should all be worried about and the oil wars that are just starting.
I think you are right on that John, I feel the story fits as you say later in time and to my guess mid 60s.
This comment is revolting.
It is also detrimental to peace and justice in the Middle East.
A February 1990 investigation by The Institute for Forensic Research in Kraków conducted a fair experiment to detect cyanides at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Having the legal permission to obtain samples, the IFRC team directed by Professor Markiewicz, collected samples from areas as sheltered from the elements as possible.
Leuchter’s report stated that the small amounts of cyanide he detected in the ruins of the crematoria are merely the result of fumigation. However the IFRC points out that the control samples they took from living areas which may have been fumigated only once as part of the 1942 typhus epidemic tested negative for cyanide, and that the typhus epidemic occurred before the crematoria at Birkenau even existed.
Accordingly, the IFRC demonstrated that cyanides were present in all of the facilities where it is claimed that they were exposed, i.e. all five crematoria, the cellars of Block 11 and the delousing facilities.
Critics state that any attempt to demonstrate that the crematoria could not have functioned as homicidal gas chambers on the basis that they were not exposed to cyanide is unsuccessful, given that its presence in what remains of these facilities is incontrovertible, and write that all of the gas chambers were exposed to cyanide at levels higher than background levels elsewhere in the camp, such as living areas, where no cyanides at all were detected. In addition, tests conducted at Auschwitz in 1945 revealed the presence of cyanides on ventilation grilles found in the ruins of Crematorium II, demonstrating that the Leuchter report was not the first forensic examination of the camp
In Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, And The David Irving Trial (2001), British historian Richard J. Evans observed that due to Leuchter’s ignorance of the large disparity between the amounts of cyanide necessary to kill humans and lice, instead of disproving the homicidal use of gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau, the small amounts of cyanide which Leuchter detected actually tended to confirm it.
Nonetheless, “pigs fly” in the imaginations of “Holocaust deniers” and “conspiracy theorists”, as well as Inverted Hasbara propaganda trolls who use references to Holocaust denial literature and crazy conspiracy theories, in order to smear information sources and investigative journalism sites critical of the Israeli government and the pro-Israel Lobby.
Israel thought Americans aboard the USS Liberty “deserved the heat” when they napalmed the US vessel in international waters on 8 June 1967. Too bad the Americans were weren’t concentrating on Tibet at the time.
2017: the 50th anniversary of Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty.
What a “great again” time for pro-Israel puppet Trump to announce a move of the US embassy to Jerusalem.
What is truly upsetting, is if you ask the average American to if they had ever heard of the USS Liberty all you will get most often is a blank stare. Add to that ask an American to what they know, to if they even know of him, to what crimes Jonathan Pollard committed against the U.S. with his spying. Both of these examples of American news failures, is a find example of the powerful Zionist lobby’s strong influence upon our U.S. Government, and our MSM. Worry about Russian collusion? Worry about Israeli collusion.
I know you’re right about people not knowing, about the USS Liberty, but it’s also confusing, in that so many lies were told, by America and Israel it’s sometimes difficult to sort it all out. Did McNamara and Johnson give Israel the green light to attack Egypt? Israel says yes, but McNamara says no, and so on. It’s something I should really look into again. I personally don’t believe Egypt had any intention of starting a war with Israel, but Israel had every intention of extending its dominion in the Middle East and initiated the attack on Egypt, and purposely targeted the USS Liberty. However I do know there is more to this story.
Annie if you do an engine search using the ‘USS Liberty’ lots of information comes up.
https://www.usslibertyveterans.org
I did, and there is still various interpretations. However, I just listened to a program by Al Jazeera, on the destruction of the USS Liberty which presented the most comprehensive take on what happened. We did give Israel the green light to initiate the war with Egypt, but not to take it as far as they did, in terms of acquiring other ME territories. In the beginning it didn’t have Johnson in total complicity in covering up what the Israeli’s did, but he came around because he was strong armed by Jewish donors and organizations that threatened to smear him as an anti-Semite and withhold funds if he chose to run again. I suspect that was done to many in the political arena. Thanks for the link.
Joe – I appreciate most of your posts, but where did you find this disgusting Hasbara link?
“working to achieve a goal that is inimical to the State of Israel ” is “a despicable agenda”???
Gross.
Annie I appreciate your interest, and like you I am always trying to get the true skinny on what happened to the USS Liberty. One of the most fascinating stories to learn about regarding the USS Liberty, is ‘Operation Cyanide’. This story involves LBJ and McNamara much more than most tales that have been told about this tragic event. Apparently, LBJ was the originator of a plan where once the USS Liberty would be confirmed sunk and destroyed, then the U.S. Air Force would then nuke Cairo. Pretty amazing stuff, and here is an article by Judy Morris which goes into some fairly great detail about that ‘false flag’, and how the inventive USS Liberty’s Radioman may have prevented WWIII.
https://nationalvanguard.org/2015/04/the-most-incredible-story-never-told-lbjs-order-to-destroy-the-uss-liberty/
Monte, I just posted the official link to the USS Liberty website. I didn’t notice that disclaimer, and like you I wish the USS Liberty website didn’t pay homage to those who tried to kill them. Strange wording indeed, could this be ‘political correctness’ at work here? So, Monte please excuse me, but maybe ask the USS Liberty website why they posted such a disgusting disclaimer. Take care. Joe
Monte George, Jr., your statement is incorrect.
The USS Liberty Veterans Association site details the brutal and deliberate attack by Israel on the USS Liberty in 1967.
The site unilaterally rejects as “a despicable agenda” use that is “inimical” to Israel as a state or the Jewish community as such.
In short, Liberty Veterans Association site is in no way “anti-Semitic”.
Telling the truth about the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty is not meant to harm Jewish people or Israel.
Inverted Hasbara (false flag “anti-Israel” / “anti-Zionist” and fake “anti-Jewish” / “anti-Semitic”) Hasbara propaganda initiatives, as well as real racist individuals and actual hate groups, have tried to use the USS Liberty attack to achieve their goals.
This Liberty Veterans Association site is definitely not a Hasbara link.
The site honors the sacrifice of those Americans who served aboard the USS Liberty in 1967.
The link from the National Vanguard site demonstrates how facts about the USS Liberty have been used by both real racist and fake “racist” individuals and groups.
The USS Liberty Veterans Association site specifically rejects the “despicable agenda” of such groups.
Real racist groups like National Vanguard and Inverted Hasbara false flag “racist” propagandists both attempt to exploit the sacrifice of those Americans who served aboard the USS Liberty.
Peter Hounam, a British journalist who has worked for Sunday Times, Daily Mirror, the London Evening Standard, and BBC Television, wrote Operation Cyanide: Why the Bombing of the USS Liberty Nearly Caused World War III (2003).
Hounam claimed that secret elements within the US and Israeli governments colluded to bomb the ship and blame the attack on Egypt and their superpower ally, the Soviet Union, triggering massive retaliation which would ensure Israeli victory.
According to Hounam, the USS Liberty attack by Israel was pre-planned with the connivance of President Johnson and the intention was to sink the ship and kill everyone on board, but as the Liberty remained afloat the plan was aborted and has been hushed up ever since.
Interestingly, the Liberty Veterans Association site references a number of books about the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, but Hounam’s book is not included on the site.
Annie – About LBJ
Annie you made some good remarks concerning LBJ, with yours allow me to add a few of mine.
LBJ was a very compromised president. He was fortunate from his position in the Oval Office to pull himself out of the Bobby Baker, and Billy Sol Estes investigation, and he was even more fortunate to be able to manually construct an investigation (the Warren Report) into the assassination of JFK (the cover up). On the home front LBJ was in total control, but what about on the international front?
It is always said that Kennedy’s assassination had a lot of Mob involvement. Taking from that, and that Myer Lansky had Chairman of the Board status in the Mob, it would stand to reason that Myer knew a lot. Myer being Jewish could have been a great help to informing the Israeli’s of every move made by LBJ known by Myer would have found it’s way to a Mossad desk somewhere in Tel Aviv, at least you would think so. And I’m also sure the Israeli’s in a very friendly way, and wanting only to help a friend such as LBJ, would have been more than a great friend to let LBJ know a little what these Israeli’s knew about the JFK murder, and insist that the details of the Kennedy murder must by all means remain a secret until infinity, or is xfinity? no that’s Comcast, anyway.
I think LBJ was one of the most compromised American politicians ever, and Nixon was running scared all the time, so who else you may ask was being extorted way back when in the 60’s? It is an understatement to say the 60’s were ‘pivotal’, why the 60’s were even more than that. The 60’s was the fine tuning, and LBJ was at the front of it, and so was Nixon. There really isn’t much difference, when it comes down to it.
Besides that the night when JFK got assassinated my dad took me to (I was 13) the Italian Club up the street from where we lived. And all those old Italian guys said, LBJ did it. So did my ‘made’ cousins in Philly & Jersey say the same thing. I mean these guys seem to know stuff that no one else ever heard of. I even remember one cousin (these guys were my dad’s age) who was happy he wasn’t asked to go to Dallas back in November of 63, because his Mama loved John Kennedy.
Annie, if you like LBJ I apologize for my rant against his good reputation, but Annie I’m sorry LBJ in my book may just be America’s most evil leader ever in our 241 year old history. Just could not resist talking about LBJ, since LBJ is somewhat in the picture with the USS Liberty false flag sacrifice.
Joe, In reference to your feelings about LBJ, I know that there are many people who believe he was involved in Kennedy’s death, and I just don’t know what to believe in that regard. I know there are many who believe the CIA and Alan Dulles was behind his assassination, since Kennedy did fire him. From the clips of that period I always thought it odd that Oswald, the murderer of a US president, was so easily assassinated by Rube. You would think he would have had greater protection, but then again Kennedy’s brain even disappeared. Intuitively I don’t think that Oswald acted alone, but I won’t speculate on who else is involved since there are so many theories out there. I don’t agree that Johnson was a horrible president, but he certainly had his faults. The Gulf of Tonkin lie is one of the bigger ones.
As far as the USS Liberty is concerned, and I did read the article from Counter Punch, I think the Al Jazeera documentary was probably the one closer to the truth as to what happened to the USS Liberty. Maybe Johnson, who was a very pro-Israeli president did give Israel the green light to attack Egypt, but I don’t think he wanted them to expand that war and take additional territories. The USS Liberty was there in order to monitor Israel, and knowing that I think Israel acted alone in it’s decision to destroy it, so they could proceed with their agenda which was to take more land as they had planned, Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the Golan Heights from Syria, the Gaza Strip from Lebanon, and the West Bank from Jordan.
Annie I can see you are a person who seeks out the truth to no end, and I can also see you are not the type of person to be easily swayed. This is quality is worth being proud of. Another thing, far be it from me to be the expert on the final last word, of any of these tragic events and to who was responsible for them. All I know, is that we who wish to learn more are bombarded by so much news regarding either the USS Liberty or the Assassination Events of the 60’s to a point of so much news is too much news, and then there go I. So Annie, your opinion and how you came to that opinion is yours, and yours alone, and no one should take that away from you. Yes, you may be persuaded by logical debate, but know that you are nobody’s fool either.
I particularly enjoyed this conversation about the USS Liberty, LBJ, and the few other things that got mentioned here on this post. So I hope in the future that you and I can continue to express our opinions to each other, and win or lose that we both learn something from one another along the way.
Have a safe and happy new year Annie. Joe
Its good. The hegemon is no more, and best of all, with the cutting of funds Trump has just killed UN agenda 2020 and the globalist dream of world domination.
This is a good thing.
Amen. The globalists are the problem – and they always have been.
Nature abhors a vacuum. Someone else will step in… It is very difficult to understand how somebody intent on “making America great again” is doing so much to diminish the US. It is getting smaller, pettier and less “indispensal” every day that passes. The mythos is gonne. “The geat democracy” is a bluff. It is pretty frightening, what will come in its stead… Evropa waits, listens and learns.
With Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel I would say, it’s high time the American people throw their two cents into the center of the ring, and stop this Israeli bribed collusion with our elected members of our U.S. Government. Whether it be the real news, or fake news, the time to tell the truth about the Israeli oppression upon the Palestinian People is long overdue. So while Arab and non-Arab nation’s cast their vote against this Trump decision concerning Jerusalem the American people need to step up, and stop this Israeli Zionist supported madness asap.
Joe, do you think the American people are going to step in and do anything for the Palestinian people? Do you think they care? The majority have little if anything to say about our wars which have killed well over a million Muslims and destroyed whole countries. If you go to Facebook, of course this issue never comes up, but the anti-Trump contingency right now are furious that Trump takes too much vacation time and spends too much time playing gulf. You would think they would encourage him to take the year off. If they are not caught up in his play time they’re attacking Melania’s dress code. Asap? What about never?
Annie I wasn’t referring too what the American citizen may do, as much as I was saying ‘what the American people should do’. As far as the playing golf, and what the First Lady wears, this is payback from the Obama crowd for all of the concern Trump had with Obama’s continually playing golf, and of course payback for criticizing Michelle’s fashions she wore.
Annie you make a good point though, this type of conversation is the one we are having, and forget speaking to each other about what really matters. You and I could spend this next year trying to analyze this situation, but for the sake of saving time, we both know these silly matters such as the President playing to much golf or what apparel the First Lady wears, is a distraction away from the important issues we should be addressing.
Look forward to your comments Annie. Joe
I never made that association that it was payback for the Obama’s which even makes it more petty. However I do know it is a distraction from the important issues, and I have often brought that up on Facebook, not to mention that a divided nation doesn’t focus on their common interests. Most Americans I know are too willing to accept what ever the mainstream press throws at them as truth, propaganda, and it doesn’t bode well for people standing up to the powers that be. I have come across educated people who still believe that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and simply got them out of the country before they could be found, and I’m from NY. Even as a child I never had the kind of “patriotism” that excepted my country right or wrong, nor did I believe they were always telling me the truth. Call it cynicism as a result of a difficult childhood.
I hear you Annie. I also can’t go along with what I call ‘blind patriotism.
The only excuse I can give my uninformed friends, is that they don’t spend the time, like I do, researching in depth all of the news that’s fit to read. I mean it takes a lot of time out of the day to seek out the truth, and then some. So, I realize that many people who are around me either don’t have or take the time to get down into the weeds with the news, or they are afraid to learn the truth, or yet they probably just don’t care. The one thing I do notice, is that we all claim to be getting the real news, and not the ‘fake news’, so confusion around the family dinner table can get awfully mean spirited.
Hang in there Annie, and keep up that cynical side, because we need to. Joe
Joe, I haven’t really acknowledge you expect for a minor correction of a 2001 reference. But I want to say here, thanks for sharing your humanity amidst many comments of a negative nature. You deserve the golden prize for keeping people on topic and gracious in their difference. So I thank you.
Carry on Joe, and I hope the New Year has many blessings.
Except
Wow, thank you Curious for the kind words, and vice versa. I needed that after a bad day, and while I’ll leave out the details I will say this, you cheered me up. Joe
Joe, while you’re enjoying all those curiously cuddly conspicuous congratulations from comrade “Curious”, consider the consequences of challenging “the sage information of many posters”
https://consortiumnews.com/2017/12/23/the-israel-gate-side-of-russia-gate/
Presumably we’re all suffering from the loss of “sage information” from those “Holocaust denial” enthusiasts who were moderated out of the comments earlier today. Lord knows, one dare not call them “trolls” because “Curious” will make a big puddle on the floor.
What’s a BF Skinner Maze?
I seriously can not tell a troll from a comment poster who just maybe flat out plain crazy, or irked by something I or someone else writes with our core opinion on this posting board. I’ve on occasion had run ins with a couple individuals who drained me of my patience, only for me to later smack my head back into my zone of good reason, and to say to myself, ‘what in the hell was that’. In the end the troll and I learned nothing from each other, and I pity the candid reader for what they loss from the stupid bitter debate to if the casual passer by observer even cared.
I remember seeing the ‘Abe vs Curious’ (link you provided Abe) back and forth at the time it was happening, and I then strayed away from commenting, because I could not for the life of me figure out to what good I could do to jump in to that ‘troll pointing’ conversation. I’m just not that equipped to know the difference between trolls of any kind. So I stayed silent.
I always like your comments Abe, whether in short form or copied pasted articles which can be long. You stay on topic, so your comments are relevant to the conversation. That’s good. I really liked it when you would attach a link to something F.G. Sanford brought up, or Bill Bodden. So write them short, or write them long Abe, because it’s you Abe.
I’m still going to be nice to Curious, because Curious was nice to me.
Lastly, I’m not here to argue, in as much as I’m here to learn something. I pretty much like everyone here, or at least I think so. BobS rattled my chain a couple of times, but even he is humorous with some of his snarky comments, so it’s him.
When you reach thirty and had more black eyes, and broken bones than a star NFL quarterback you get tired of fighting, so peace to all and to all a very Happy & Healthy New Year. Joe
Ps that philosophical change must have proved good for me since this coming year I will be 68.
The “run ins” as you called them are in no way personal, Joe. My responses are based on what’s posted. A troll is one who trolls. The “identity” of the troll is impossible to determine. So it’s not an “argument” or “debate” in any way.
Wow Abe, a 4 word alliteration, how long did that take you? A month of practicing?
If you like him Joe, please explain to me why Abe would take the time to belitttle a thoughtful note to you and a wish for all the best at the end of 2017, facing a soon-to-be 2018? the note wasn’t to him was it?
Joe, a BF Skinner maze was a psychological and behaviorist experiment to analyse aspects of behavioral human nature. He authored many results of said experiments. One of those Harvard personas. The short version is he used ‘operant conditioning’ he invented, aka the Skinner Box, which could examine a rat, or a mouse bumping against all odds in his maze to find a piece of food. Is the animal trained or does the animal have the instincts on its own? He is known by some as a pioneer of modern behaviorism. When we studied his work, it was said he even put his own daughter in this box to evaluate her behavior. I don’t know if this is true or rumor.
Skinner was an advocate for free will vs determinism. Chomsky was a critic and felt Skinners work was not much more than behavioral word games, not unlike this Abe character when he smells cheese, or trash. Were the response of the rats/mice a conditioned response to stimuli or some other facit of behavior? For Abe, he is very predictable in targeting what he doesn’t understand, and therefore he is a perfect candidate for the Skinner box. I don’t think he has the intellect to even find the piece of cheese at the end of the journey. Skinner spent a long time disputing determinism, and wrote that humans are a product, or focus of their environment. This is obviously a very short ‘cliff notes’ version and there is not enough time to flesh out the variables. Since I like Chomsky, I tended to be more critical of Skinner. Can you imagine putting your own daughter in a behavioral box/maze to test a theory? I can’t.
I use this for Abe since he is in this behavior box and can’t get out. Every hint of some version of his own theories produces a mix of cliches and arguments lacking in subtleties. We who think are more grey than black and white, and Abe is Black and White through and through. Life is far more complicated than his trivial “troll” alerts and my best visual of him is living under a bridge demanding some coin of value before one can pass his test. Think of Monte Pythons Bridge of Death and this fits Abe to a ‘T’ It won’t be long before he is tossed into the pit of despair as well since his formulation of current events is a recalcitrant wall that opposes variant thought.
I say this only to you Joe since you have been a ray of sun in some of my foggier days, and that has a value.
Without going into who I am as a person, since this is most likely boring and off topic, let me just say I have studied in Switzerland, Germany, New Zealand and have never even tried to meet face to face with a human like Abe. The likes of Abe when he tosses his trollisms is an affront, belittling, and unwise. Though I consider him unwise, this is no surprise. As I have said before, and as you have also indicated he does present some very valuable information, so he must study (or is just simply good at links friends give him), but then his repulsive nature takes over and he attacks whatever version of troll he feels on any day. I was very explicit regarding the evil country of Israel and gave a wish list of what they should do to join the world community. Abe said not a word, as it probably didn’t fit his version of a troll to bash and bludgeon.
So he brings out his thesaurus and brews an alliteration to tell you I was cuddling, but I’m not sure in his twisted mind it can also be conspicuous. To say hello and wish you well after at least 4 years of hearing your opinions, is not cuddling, nor anything more than a hello from afar to wish you well. Abes response should act as a warning to you Joe, since he didn’t even respect my good wishes and chose to belittle them as he often does. Beware of Abe and his methods Joe since he has proven to be an acerbic, caustic, and vindictive person. For his sake I didn’t use an alliteration, which plays into his sickness.. I rarely criticise individuals as a rule and especially on this site, but his answer to you depicted a deranged individual mired in hate and venom.
Abe has many good insights, but his ad hominem attacks are beyond the pale and in many cases, like my own supposed trollishness, he is foolish and ignorant. For him not to realize I am the furthest version of his troll definition shows he is borderline insane. It may work for him in his cave, but he is definitely wrong about so many people with legitimate human traits, which by logical extension, he has not the ability for empathy, sympathy, and can carry on a legitimate discussion. Narcissism is his MO. Propaganda and its intense forms has nurtured his neurons to the point he can’t determine fact from fiction, nor information different than his training. He is a man bereft of thought and the ability to learn anything other than his own self promotion.
In closing Joe, despite Abes’ hate, I still want to wish you a pleasant end of the year and a good turn into the next one, as I stated before the Skinner box rat had his input. Cheers Joe.
Whether a comment poster be a troll, or be a person thought to be a troll, and or anyone with an opinion, I just look for intelligent debate. I’m somewhat upset to see so much conflict on this comment board, but all in the name of free speech, I say so what. I mean people need to express their opinions. My opinion isn’t always the final analysis of anything here that we all write about, and often I learn at least a little of something when hearing of what another has to say about a particular subject, or an event important to our concerns.
It’s regretful that such smart minds as you guys have, that a conversation turns into a cat fight. Again, go ahead and troll all you want, but please leave the reader something worth chewing on. If we stop judging each other, and quit with the accusations then this could possibly lead to some intelligent debate. Otherwise this comment board is not worth following.
If we were sitting here and our physical selfs were present to each other I would urge you two to shake hands, and start anew, but there again maybe it would be better to just leave you guys slug it out….I don’t know, but I do know this, we are not adding anything of any intelligent value to this comment boards messaging, and with that we all lose.
Peace. Joe
“Curious” predictably proves the point by piddling profusely.
The most basic Inverted Hasbara (false flag “anti-Israel” / “anti-Zionist”) propaganda troll tactic is to loudly toss in a few irrelevant hyperboles like “evil country” or non-factual remarks like “trying to be a Jewish State”.
Inverted Hasbara trolls make such “anti-Israel” noises while assiduously avoiding substantive fact-based criticism of the Israeli government or pro-Israel Lobby.
“Curious” demonstrate the basic Inverted Hasbara tactic in the prodigious piddle that appears above.
The primary aim of both Inverted Hasbara (false flag “anti-Israel” / “anti-Zionist” and fake “anti-Jewish” / “anti-Semitic”) propaganda and Conventional Hasbara (overtly pro-Israel / pro-Zionist) propaganda is to discredit fact-based criticism and solid investigative journalism that examines of Israeli government policies, the workings of pro-Israel Lobby, and Israel’s efforts to influence American politics.
Hasbara propaganda trolls seed online comments with obvious lies (claims unsupported by facts), lunacy (illogic and crazy “conspiracy theory”), and offensive racism (virulent “anti-Jewish” rants, “Holocaust denial”, et cetera).
The dismal lack of success of so much of Conventional Hasbara (overtly pro-Israel / pro-Zionist / pro-Jewish) propaganda led to the development of Inverted Hasbara (false flag “anti-Israel” / “anti-Jewish”) propaganda.
Hasbara lies and lunacy are used to distract, divert and dilute legitimate critical discussion of efforts to manipulate US politics and foreign policy on behalf of Israel.
Hasbara propaganda trolls have been exposed online due to their often clumsy tactics,.
The latest tactics used by both Conventional Hasbara and Inverted Hasbara trolls:
– claiming they are being “attacked” and that its mere “ad hominem”
– accusing anyone who identifies the troll’s behavior of being a “troll”
– rejecting critical information about Israel (important for new visitors to the site) as “wordiness” or “redundancy”
– spewing psycho-babble jargon (like “Skinner box”, “Pavlovian”, et al)
– avoiding fact-based discussion and analysis
– emphasizing “opinions”, “interpretations” and fact-free “debates”
– characterizing the identification of the troll’s behavior as “hate”
– dismissing fact-based critical analysis while loudly claiming to be “anti-Israel”
“Curious” has repeatedly demonstrated all of these Hasbara troll tactics.
Hasbara propaganda relies on public ignorance of basic facts about international law, the legacy of Israeli support for terror, and the history of Zionist land grab efforts in Palestine.
That’s why Hasbara trolls loudly complain about “data dumps” and “verbal diarrhea” when facts about Israel are presented.
Conventional Hasbara (overtly pro-Israeli) propaganda works in tandem with Inverted Hasbara (false flag “anti-Israel”) propaganda in ever more desperate efforts to “defend Israel” with a firehose of falsehood.
The Hasbara troll army aim to deceive, distract, divert and disrupt discussion of Israeli government actions or the interference of the pro-Israel Lobby.
Consortium News readers are alert to Hasbara dis-information and propaganda in its two forms – both Inverted Hasbara (false flag “anti-Israel”) and Conventional Hasbara (obviously pro-Israel) propaganda.
Joe, a “puddle on the floor” is not personal? Sheesh.
Joe, I won’t bother you anymore but I mean, really? If one were to read Abes criteria bullet points below I suppose everyone and anyone could be a troll, he being the worst. It’s amazing how much mileage he gets out of mimicking my words. My words.
Skinner Box” or “Pavlovian” can’t possibly be due to whatever his version of a troll is, since it is my language and he probably had to look it up. Trolls study BF Skinner? That’s news to me!
He has lost all sense of proportion, and just so you know, I am the farthest thing from a troll he has ever witnessed. I suppose if I said “Die Gedanken sind Frei” he would think it to be some form of trollism. Or to quote from the Brüder Grimm about Ashenpuddel and her evil stepmother, this has to be a troll of course because who else would use these words?. These German phrases must be from a troll, well, I mean they have to be.
I studied the language of the nazis and this is my interest, not Abe. I actually fear the commonalities of the fascist language of 70 years ago to the language used today in anger and hate. At least the Germans could create compound nouns for their propaganda, and the English language is somewhat limited in this respect, but the meanings are approaching a similar cause and effect which we see every day.
My thesis was on Coleridges’ Biographia Literaria and specifically whether an artist has a right to argue his own work, or is any viewer or readers’ thoughts just as legitimate as the artists’? These are indeed troll-like passions of mine without any Abe to muck it up. Perhaps it must be the Albatross around my neck that he noticed. To tie in what I said about Coleridge, Abes opinions are of very questionable legitimacy as he pretends he has more to tell about an individual than the individual themselves. This is foolish, and when he says ”hilarity ensues” he misses the obvious point that people are laughing at him, rather than the one he attacks.
Actually, he is so twisted up inside, that any criticism of his comments turns the critic into a troll, because what else would they be? Should they instead fawn over his brilliance? Someone with another opinion perhaps than the cave mentality molding away in Abe? I’m done with him, and it is too bad Mr Parry lets him take up more than half the comment section with his troll alerts. Paranoia does indeed strike deep, as he is proof of this song from the 60s. He is amazingly bad and perpetually wrong about me and many of his favorite trolls. But I am over this garbage he spews (oh oh, more trollisms)
Carry on Joe and best of luck in the year 2018. This is the last you will hear from me about this lunatic, who needs to be in a care facility instead of commenting here.
I couldn’t even express some respect for you and fond wishes for the New Year without the abuse from whoever Abe thinks he is, or his right to tear me down when I had the best of intentions. Hopefully he will just keep his comments around the wonderful articles on this site and lose his lexicon of hate and abuse, which, for some reason he feels it’s not personal to attack someone. He is a bizarre creature. But enough of the distractions as I will turn back to the articles of great importance on CN.
So the other day my tenet who rents from me the 2nd floor apartment inside my two unit apartment building called to notify me that he caught the 1st floor tenet slashing his tires. So I being who I am struggled for two days trying to think of how I could be of help to resolve this tenet dilemma. Finally I returned the 2nd floor tenets frantic phone call regarding the tire slashing, and low and behold the two tenets over a few drinks brought their dispute to a friendly end. Sometimes things take care of themselves.
I’m hoping that you Curious, or you Abe, can either learn to ignore each other, or better yet debate the hell out of what you each have opinions on, and then leave it be to what it is.
Like I said, I couldn’t tell a troll from a brother in law, and if you knew my brother in laws you would know what I’m talking about. Sometimes my brother in laws can argue with me while at the same time they agree with me….go figure.
Also, the topic was about Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, and with all this troll talk we here have loss the narrative of what we should be talking about. For the sake of making this a readable thread, I would again only encourage you both to put this troll business aside, and get back to talking about Trump and dear ole Israel.
I seriously hope my writing this doesn’t inflame this arguement any further. I happen to think both of you have a lot to offer to our many conversations here, so I hope my urging you both to turn it down a little bit, is observed.
I really mean it, Peace. Joe
So glad to hear that li’l “golden prize” cuddle from “Curious” cheered you up, Joe.
And oh, you are positively a “ray of sun” for our dear comrade “Curious”.
But there’s no personal “argument” or “fighting” here with comrade “Curious”.
It’s a “business” issue.
With the speechifying from “Curious” about “comments of a negative nature”, it’s clear “Curious” wants to “keep people” at CN “on topic” (not mentioning Hasbara trolls) and “gracious” (kindly toward Hasbara trolls) toward “difference” (fact-free Hasbara troll posts).
But Hasbara propaganda is not a “business” to “ignore”.
Hasbara propaganda trolls strive to distract, divert, and dilute discussion about the Israeli government and the pro-Israel Lobby.
Funny how these trolls perpetually insist that things are “more grey” and “far more complicated” than the fairly straightforward issue of a warmongering Apartheid state (Israel) that interferes with American elections (Israel-gate), and manipulates American foreign policy (via the pro-Israel Lobby).
It’s not all that complicated.
Hasbara trolls obviously prefer that we “ignore” their “business”, leave their distractions unquestioned, and allow all their diversions to go unchallenged.
So it’s really not-so-curious at all why comrade “Curious” views any “trivial ‘troll’ alerts” as “insane”.
“Curious” is hysterical to prevent dangerous “attacks” (on Hasbara trolls).
Despite all the furtive antics by “Curious” to make things appear somehow “personal”, there are no “arguments” or personal “debates” with these Hasbara trolls.
One need only point out the facts about Israel and the pro-Israel Lobby.
Then when the Hasbara “business” postings arrive, identify the specific Conventional Hasbara and Inverted Hasbara propaganda tactics, call the Hasbara trolls out with reference to specifics, and observe the generous outpourings of troll piddle that ensue.
Minus all the Hasbara “business”, things indeed will take care of themselves.
Shalom and Happy New Year to all.
I must say, Curious, when it comes to losing a “sense of proportion”, you win hands down. The over-the-top hysteria and wild mischaracterizations thrown Abe’s way would be tiresome if I wasn’t so amused by your gaffes. And yes, you are conspicuous.
If I was a high school teacher I would give you a “D” for your “cliff notes” on Skinner. And you contradict yourself with regard to how you feel about Abe’s insights, the value of his information and/or ability to reason, alliterate common words without a thesaurus, or even accomplish simple trial-and-error methods of getting to cheese.
You seem to think that passing yourself off as “educated”—you know, referencing Skinner and using German phrases, and writing a dissertation–somehow disqualifies the possibility of your being a paid provocateur. I fail to see how that applies–particularly as you seem to be in line for a refund from Germany, Switzerland, New Zealand, or wherever. But I’ll leave that question aside and in the hands of more capable spotters than I.
Just one more note or two. As to your dissertation…the right of an artist to “argue” his work and the equal validity or “legitimacy” of the critique of others are not diametrically opposed. I’m curious as to your actual thesis.
But, as with issues pertaining to international law, it’s complex…right.
My take is that you purposely tried to stir up divisiveness against one of our more august contributors. The reason behind this may amount to nothing. But you did go to lengths I believe on the 23rd to heavily criticize Abe’s manner of contribution.
Abe, that is a most thorough and spot-on description of the undercover hasbara tactics. It should be an article in itself. They pretend to be anti-Israel, while doing everything they can to confuse and derail informative and useful discussions, generating needless fights, wasting time and space, and discouraging new readers. They seem to be somewhat on the intelligent side, and somewhat armed with selective facts, but hobbled by being so removed from reality. For the sake of honest discussion it’s important to call them out.
“If one were to read Abes criteria bullet points below I suppose everyone and anyone could be a troll, he being the worst”, says Curious. That statement is so far from the most obvious reality that the writer could only have an ulterior motive (e.g. blur reality), especially from a moderately informed and intelligent writer. That’s a dead giveaway. His readiness to go into extended name-calling and sarcasm is another.
“Intelligent debate”, as Joe says, is the coin of the realm here.
Herr Professor Piddle, our loquacious Coleridge-Sartre-Skinner scholar, and our resident “Hasberera” spelling-expert “Tannenhouser” are both hot to go in the “argument” and “debate” department.
Unfortunately, their team’s purity of arms strictly prohibits any and all “garbage about facts”, because facts about the Israeli government and the pro-Israel Lobby are nothing but “hate” from hating haters who won’t “play nice” with Hasbara trolls.
I think it is more American Zionist supported madness.
I think you are right.
Joe,
Would it be a fair assessment of your insightful, honest commentary to summarize in the single statement: “Wisdom is displayed in choosing to settle differences through morally far, far superior, civilized debate where “weapons” are ideas and nobody dies – and not on the fields of war where weapons surely kill”?
Let us propose and consider seriously an action which has the potential for greatly strengthening, on the international scale, the idea of debate and dialogue over violence and war – “The Great War and Peace Debate of 2018”. Readers of Consortium News and the few independent media organizations loyal to truth fully understand the issues discussed are the most important humanity faces. There are clearly differences in perceptions on these most important matters, so perhaps now is an ideal point in history for committed people around the Earth to powerfully and directly challenge those they vehemently disagree with to one-on-one debates. Why now as 2018 arrives? Because now is always the best time for choosing debate over war in settling ideological, philosophical, economic, or any other differences.
We are suggesting men and women the world over resolve in 2018 to challenge warmongers at every turn to lengthy debates, and strongly recommending people consider that as their sole, #1 New Year’s Resolution. In a real sense the persisting and dangerous divide of ideas on the incomparably important issue of war and peace can only be dealt with positively through powerful, wise and morally-focused exchanges of ideas.
May 2018 become remembered by future generations on Earth as the “year of debate” – “The Great War and Peace Debate of 2018” – where war as a method or means of settling differences went into extinction forever.
And JFK would agree with you Jerry.
“In short, general and complete disarmament must no longer be a slogan, used to resist the first steps. It is no longer to be a goal without means of achieving it, without means of verifying its progress, without means of keeping the peace. It is now a realistic plan, and a test–a test of those only willing to talk and a test of those willing to act.
Such a plan would not bring a world free from conflict and greed– but it would bring a world free from the terrors of mass destruction. It would not usher in the era of the super state–but it would usher in an era in which no state could annihilate or be annihilated by another.” JFK 9/25/61 addressing the UN
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Jerry talking like you just did may induct you into my status as you becoming a hopeless dreamer, and a divine purist at heart. Actually though, you are also keeping good company amongst the likes of Mahatma Gandhi, MLK, John Lennon, and of course that inconvenient truth teller ‘Jesus’. No problem Jerry, because what you are advocating is exactly what is needed, in order to tune out the noise of war talk, and that in my regard is never a bad thing. Your suggestion Jerry deserves a hearing out at the UN, and a sounding reveille to be heard in every nation’s capital as away to go forward.
Here’s to you Jerry to have a good 2018, and hopefully ‘the Great War & Peace Debate of 2018’ will become a reality. Joe
Jerry I like your ideas. Joe
A Happy and Healthy New Year to you Joe,
You too Annie. Oh, and Annie thanks for bringing your well informed intelligent commentary to consortiumnews. Joe