Fueling More Bloodshed in Ukraine

Exclusive: In the U.S., Russia-hating liberals are joining the neocons in seeking more war in Ukraine, as the prospects for a rational and peaceful resolution to the crisis continue to fade, explains James W. Carden.

By James W. Carden

Last January, Sen. John McCain led a delegation along with his longtime sidekick, Sen. Lindsey Graham, to a contingent of Ukrainian troops not far from the front line in eastern Ukraine. In the presence of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, Graham told the soldiers: “Your fight is our fight … 2017 will be the year of offense. All of us will go back to Washington and we will push the case against Russia.”

The neo-Nazi Wolfsangel symbol on a banner in Ukraine.

McCain promised the assembled troops, “we will do everything we can to provide you with what you need to win.”

When contemplating the long careers of the two Republican senators, it is hard to escape the conclusion that McGeorge Bundy’s quip about the famed Cold War columnist Joe Alsop – that he had “never known him to go to any area where blood could be spilled that he didn’t come back and say more blood” – applies equally to McCain and Graham.

Indeed, last month’s National Defense Authorization Act shows that – if nothing else – McCain and Graham are as good as their word: the recently passed defense appropriations bill provides for $500 million, including “defensive lethal assistance” to Kiev, as part of a $640 billion overall spending package.

The aid comes at a good time for the embattled Ukrainian President Poroshenko, whose approval rating hovers around 16 percent. In a bid to stave off the possibility of a far-right coup d’etat, Poroshenko is back to banging the war drums, promising, well, more blood.

In a little covered speech at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point on Sept. 19, Poroshenko promised that “American weapons will help us liberate the Donbas and return Ukrainian territories.” He also noted that Ukraine spends roughly 6 percent of its GDP on defense, “a figure,” he observed, “much bigger than the obligation for the NATO members.”

Clearly Washington’s condemnation of governments that wage war “against their own people” remains selective, contingent upon who is doing the killing and who is doing the dying. In this case, it would seem that Russian-speaking Ukrainians simply don’t rate.

In addition to promising a wider war in the Donbas, Poroshenko has repeatedly promised that he will seek NATO membership. In August, during a visit by U.S. Defense Secretary James Mattis, Poroshenko declared: “Our Ukrainian caravan is on a roll and we have one road to travel upon — a wide Euro-Atlantic highway, leading to membership in the European Union and NATO.”

Ukraine’s Human Rights Abuses

There are a number of objections to yet another round of NATO expansion. As I reported in February 2015: “The current [Ukrainian] government has, according to organizations that could hardly be described as Kremlin friendly (Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe), committed war crimes in its attempt to defeat the Russian-backed separatists in the Donbas. … NATO’s principal consideration should not be whether NATO will make Ukraine more secure, but whether Ukraine will make NATO more secure. The answer is self-evident.”

Nazi symbols on helmets worn by members of Ukraine’s Azov battalion. (As filmed by a Norwegian film crew and shown on German TV)

It is true that NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, as recently as this month, insisted to Russian state media that NATO is not contemplating Ukrainian membership, telling Sputnik that “There is no MAP [membership action plan] on the agenda.” Yet Stoltenberg has also said, as he did in a speech to the Ukrainian parliament in July, that he believes Ukraine “has the right to choose its own security arrangements” further noting that “last month, NATO welcomed Montenegro as the 29th member of our Alliance. This shows that NATO’s door remains open.”

So the issue doesn’t seem to be going away.

Poroshenko’s push to join NATO, which is being made against the backdrop of ever-worsening relations between the U.S. and Russia, ignores, perhaps purposefully, one of the principal causes of the morass in which Kiev and Moscow find themselves. It was Moscow’s not unfounded fear that Ukraine might join NATO that helped spark the Ukrainian crisis in early 2014.

In the weeks prior to Russia’s annexation of Crimea (and just over a month before the outbreak of full hostilities in the Donbas), three former presidents of Ukraine (Leonid Kravchuk, Leonid Kuchma and Viktor Yushchenko) called on the post-Maidan regime to renounce the 2010 Kharkiv agreement which allowed for Russia to base its Black Sea naval fleet in Crimea (in return for discounted prices on Russian natural gas).

It is perhaps not unreasonable that this last move, in addition to the foreign policy and security protocols embedded within the European Union Association agreement (which Poroshenko signed in June 2014), would cause the Russian government to at the very least suspect that NATO was setting the stage for Ukraine’s eventual absorption into the alliance.

Indeed, Kiev’s launch of its violent and indiscriminate “Anti-Terrorist Operation” against the Donbas – with the effect of intimidating and alienating otherwise loyal Russian-speaking citizens in the eastern part of the country – surely played a role in the Kremlin’s decision to come to the aid of the rebels later in the summer of 2014 and again at Debaltseve early the following year.

Less Dangerous Options

One reasonable alternative to NATO membership would be a treaty along the lines of the 1955 Austrian State Treaty, which was an agreement reached between the four post-World War II occupying powers (U.S., USSR, Great Britain and France) that granted Austria its independence “with the understanding,” according to the U.S. State Department, “that the newly independent state of Austria would declare its neutrality, creating a buffer zone between the East and the West,” meaning it would join neither NATO nor the Soviet-run Warsaw Pact.

Ukraine’s anti-Russian President Petro Poroshenko speaking to the Atlantic Council in 2014. (Photo credit: Atlantic Council)

Charles Bohlen, the legendary American diplomat who served as ambassador to Moscow from 1953-57, recalled in his memoir Witness To History that, with regard to the Austrian State Treaty, he believed “that the Kremlin leaders, and probably the Soviet military chiefs, decided that a genuinely neutral Austria was of more value to Soviet Russia than the maintenance of a divided country where the Red Army would occupy only the poorer half.”

The situation in postwar Austria – occupied by East and West – is not perfectly analogous to the situation that obtains in Ukraine today, but there seem to be lessons from what Bohlen intuited were the Kremlin’s motives that might be drawn upon to inform Western diplomacy.

But instead of trying to implement the Minsk peace agreement (which calls for the Donbas to remain as part of Ukraine but with more autonomy from Kiev) or search for a reasonable alternative to what are indeed perplexing and pressing matters of national security, Poroshenko has continued to ring the alarm over the another, this time illusory, Russian invasion.

In a recent speech before the Ukrainian parliament, Poroshenko claimed “there is more and more evidence for [Russia’s] preparations for an offensive war of continental proportions.”

Yet perhaps the danger isn’t as clear and present as Poroshenko portrayed it. As Mary Dejevesky of the U.K.’s Independent has observed: “Nato itself had held exercises in the Black Sea and before that in and around the western borderlands of Ukraine. Who, it has to be asked here, is threatening whom?”

Indeed, if Russia was on the precipice of launching a land war in Eastern Europe, would it have cut its defense budget by 25 percent to $48 billion a year, as was recently announced by the Kremlin?

As difficult as it might be for our hearty band on new cold warriors to believe (some of whom have scant knowledge about the topic of U.S.-Russia relations on which they so frequently choose to declaim), the push for a peaceable settlement in Ukraine is coming not from Washington, but from Moscow and Berlin.

Nevertheless, the stalemate continues: a resolution to the Ukrainian conflict – through the implementation of the Minsk agreements, as well as a settlement of the outstanding security concerns of all parties to the conflict – seems to remain tragically out of reach.

James W. Carden served as an adviser on Russia policy at the US State Department. Currently a contributing writer at The Nation magazine, his work has appeared in the Los Angeles Times, Quartz, The American Conservative and The National Interest.

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181 comments for “Fueling More Bloodshed in Ukraine

  1. mike k
    October 14, 2017 at 2:12 pm

    The use in this article of the phrase “Russia’s annexation of Crimea” is unfortunate. A fully open and legal decision was made by the Crimean population to join their territory to Russia. Being taken over and “annexed” by the Ukrainian Nazis apparently did not appeal to them.

    • Realist
      October 14, 2017 at 6:10 pm

      This is an author that obviously sees the madness of pursuing the strident anti-Russian warmongering pushed by 98% of the media, the arms manufacturers, the Congress, the pentagon, the Deep State and whoever the chief executive happens to be, but he still rides the fence and appeases the killers with dogwhistle phrases such as you noted because he doesn’t want to be blackballed like Seymour Hersh and other award-winning journalists who are simply silenced by the establishment when they try to communicate the truths they have learned. I’d wager that most American correspondents are actually smart enough to know they routinely lie in the performance of their jobs now, and they must feel fairly filthy on a moral level about having to do so.

      The American establishment is paranoid about the tiniest smidgen of independent thinking that tries to emerge from sources like RT, Sputnik and sundry alternative media sites on the internet, sources that most of the American public are totally oblivious to. Mainstream journalists note that and act accordingly like cowed lackeys who will dispense the propaganda that is expected of them. For this author to say something like, “Clearly Washington’s condemnation of governments that wage war “against their own people” remains selective, contingent upon who is doing the killing and who is doing the dying. In this case, it would seem that Russian-speaking Ukrainians simply don’t rate,” is quite the breakthrough but probably required the attachment of “cover your ass” counter phrases such as you noted by his employers at “the Nation,” which is still liberal but no longer entirely honest because of politics. They are still required to rally round Hillary and her crazy train. Only Stephen F. Cohen can be entirely trusted at “the Nation” these days.

      • Dave P.
        October 14, 2017 at 8:29 pm

        Realist – Perfect depiction of that 98 % Media, as you wrote, and also of those Mainstream lackey journalists – if one still wants to call them journalists. And what you said of “the Nation” is very true. Just like “Democracy Now”, it has been marching towards that 98% MSM for some time now – they do not want to be left behind.

        • Rob Roy
          October 15, 2017 at 4:38 pm

          Dave P., Recently Julian Assange chastised Amy Goodman on Democracy Now! about her capitulating on lies and joining the ranks of journalists who kowtow to the establishment. Here’s part of their conversation. I was so glad to hear this conversation. Amy has bought into the Russia-gate (no evidence whatsoever) and the Assad bashing by presenting a young woman from Am.Int’l who lied, and reporting that Assad used gas on Syrians (see S. Hersh articles) the and the validity of the White Helmets who have been discredited. Here’s some of the conversation:
          JULIAN ASSANGE: “…the United States’ political culture has gone mad. Roger Stone is trolling epically the Democratic political class in order to elevate his profile. And it’s sad to see that Democracy Now! is buying into it.
          AMY GOODMAN: Presenting the news is not buying into it. Presenting the news is having you respond to what he’s saying because you are the center of this, in this particular case, and it’s important to hear your voice.
          JULIAN ASSANGE: Well, look, Amy—look, Amy, I’m getting annoyed. There is a historic event occurring this afternoon involving Catalonia, , that could well change the nature of Europe, what forms of repression are acceptable within the Western world, and what moves populations can take in order to resist repression and come together to secure their self-determination. This has been the greatest Gandhian project that has occurred. Millions of Catalonians turning out to vote in the street are being beaten aggressively by Spanish security forces, being hacked by Spanish security forces, having their telephone exchange occupied, having their political leadership arrested, being threatened, as we saw today, with rebellion and put in prison for a minimum of 25 years.
          That is going to spread throughout the Western world. The lessons of this are going to spread throughout the Western world to—yes, to secessionist movements, but also to the states trying to repress them and to repress people’s struggles for self-determination, in general. The discipline with which the Catalan population have carried out their referendum is astounding. Astounding, that millions of people are going to the polls, being beaten by the police, and not one image of them fighting back. Not one image. That’s incredible discipline. And similarly in their marches and so on. And if the U.S. left is not absolutely obsessed with what is happening there and the redefinition that is occurring of the nature of the relationship between population and state, well, I mean, I have no time for you.”
          It was a relief to hear him.

          • Daniel
            October 15, 2017 at 10:32 pm

            Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Rob. I’ve become so angry at Ms. Goodman over the past couple of years of constant anti-Sryian propaganda, and her irrational anti-Russia malarky that I’ve pretty much had to stop watching DemocracyNow! So, I missed that lovely exchange.

      • UkrainianSavior
        October 15, 2017 at 12:51 am

        There is no independent thinking at RT and Sputnik; it is a confirmed, indisputable fact that they’re tools for Kremlin propaganda.

        “Everyone ELSE is wrong about the invasion except the people committing it” You’re an idiot. The Krym Referendum was completely illegitimate, with people having guns to their heads and the process being called “Democracy”.

        The only Nazis here are the Russians and its supporters; the only freedom you pigs deserve is freedom from this mortal coil.

        • Realist
          October 15, 2017 at 3:38 am

          “Confirmed” and “indisputable” by gullible idiots like yourself. I grew up amidst scores of congenital bigoted morons like yourself on the streets of Chicago, so I know all about you and your culture of hate. Your parents were usually Nazis who worked as guards in the concentration camps and were given a pass to America because the OSS and later the CIA thought they’d make useful tools against the Russians. If they didn’t settle you folks in Chi town, likely they sent you to Manitoba or Saskatchewan. Your people came from a culture of criminals in Europe and continued to practice that trade in America, bragging every day about how your old man had a job working for Tony Accardo in the Italian mafia, delivering stolen liquor to Ferrara Manor or one of a dozen other lounges. At least Big Tuna never had to worry about any of you blockheads having the slightest bit of ambition. He’d say jump and you’d say how high. You idiots still think you are running a resistance faction against the Kremlin in Ukrainian Village on the near West Side. Earth to U keys: Your piece of real estate has been independent and you’ve been effing it up entirely by yourselves since 1991. You want good relations with Russia? (Actually you don’t, you just want someone to blame for your own ineptitude.) Stop stealing gas, shaking down the EU and poking the bear. Even Uncle Sam is gonna stop giving you free stuff at some point.

          • Will Toffan
            October 16, 2017 at 4:13 pm

            Amen!

        • Peter P
          October 15, 2017 at 4:14 am

          The governing party at the time of the Kiev coup on 22 February 2014, was the Party of Regions. Its delegates fled for their lives, including president Yanukovych. The Crimean delegates fled back to Crimea. Busloads of “anti-maiden” pro-government supporters were stopped in the Kherson countryside just north of Crimea by Right Sector neo-nazi thugs and beaten, allegedly about 20 were beaten to death. The coup government’s first act was to repeal the law on minority languages. This enraged the Russian-speaking people of the south and east of the country. The people of Crimea had had previous referenda wanting to secede from Ukraine and return to Russia. They were already talking of initiating this before Yanukovych (still the constitutional head of government) wrote to Putin requesting intervention on 1 March 2014.

        • Sam F
          October 15, 2017 at 8:05 am

          If you wanted to be a “savior” of Ukraine you would be interested in saving what you believe in, rather than dominating the ethnic/linguistic Russian minority in the eastern provinces and Crimea. Those areas were never “yours” any more than the lands stolen to form Israel. What you want is not that geography where they are the vast majority anyway, you want political dominance. That is why you were unable to work with them to sustain a democracy, and chose to tyrannize them.

          What you had was not democracy but symbolic war, and you replaced that with outright war. You will not have a democracy until you can learn to recognize the rights of all political factions and live in peace. Until then east Ukraine and Crimea deserve their independence.

        • Adrian Engler
          October 15, 2017 at 10:28 am

          I think there are two things that should be distinguished.

          There are, of course, legitimate doubts about the legality of the secession of the autonomous republic of Crimea and Sevastopol. It was certainly not legal according to the Ukrainian constitution – just like a short time before that ousting the democratically elected Ukrainian president without even a semblance of a correct impeachment procedure and with the Ukrainian parliament under the watch of armed paramilitary groups certainly was not legal according to the Ukrainian constitution.

          But to pretend a majority of the inhabitants of Crimea would have preferred the peninsula to remain a part of Ukraine and that they only voted the way they did because they were allegedly afraid of Russian guns is an obvious falsehood, and I doubt anyone with the slightest knowledge about the situation in Crimea seriously believes that. Several polls after spring 2014, including Western and Ukrainian ones, confirmed that a vast majority of the inhabitants of Crimea wanted to leave Ukraine and to join Russia (see e.g. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/#2e2a9769510d).

          If people on Crimea had any doubts about the decision, these doubts probably vanished after the brutal military onslaught of the Ukrainian army, together with far-right militias, against Donbass. In Donbass, after the coup in Kyïv, people had used similar methods to protest as people in Western Ukraine had used towards the end of Yanukovich’s rule – e.g. occupying public buildings and other forms of insubordination. But in contrast to Yanukovich, those who came to power after the coup decided to unleash a brutal military assault against those who protested instead of looking for a political solution. It would be crazy to claim that many people on the Crimean peninsula would have wanted a similar fate.

        • Shlomo
          October 15, 2017 at 11:22 am

          Uhhh, even if they are government funded news organizations, that doesn’t mean these Nazi-fucks in the ukraine aren’t real…

          • Shlomo
            October 15, 2017 at 11:23 am

            @UkrainianSavior

        • frizzy gee
          October 15, 2017 at 6:48 pm

          Wow : “the only freedom you pigs deserve is freedom from this mortal coil”. Spoken like a true democracy-loving Bendera supporter!

      • Joe Wallace
        October 15, 2017 at 1:48 am

        Realist:

        “Only Stephen F. Cohen can be entirely trusted at “the Nation” these days.”

        You’re right about Cohen, but you can add Patrick Lawrence to your list of who can be trusted at “The Nation.” His article, “A New Report Raises Big Questions About Last Year’s DNC Hack,” went against the grain of mainstream reporting to support the conclusion reached by Ray McGovern, William Binney and the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) that the DNC disclosures were leaked, not hacked. Here’s a link to the article.

        https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

        • Realist
          October 15, 2017 at 3:43 am

          Yes, that’s the article that received such a negative response from the readership, was it not? Unfortunately, liberal Dems were so traumatised by the election results that they simply do not want to hear anything that absolves the Russians from all blame for Hillary’s defeat. The degree of irrationality in the liberal community has me stunned and disappointed. The left is capable of being just as crazy as the right.

          • Wake Thehellup
            October 15, 2017 at 5:33 am

            “The left is capable of being just as crazy as the right.”} @Realist(|:-0
            I know you’re not just now figuring that out!!!!! The “deep state” in the U.S. is a baaaaad shut-your-mouth!!!

          • Dave P.
            October 15, 2017 at 12:02 pm

            Realist, you are right on that on liberal Democrats – which I was all my life until finally I woke up to Obama what he was doing in 2009 -10. But, more than that it seems to me that these liberal democrats – the Elite – is more or less is controlled by increasing Zionist takeover of the Democratic Party. They keep the faithful – minorities and others who are some what educated – busy with these transgender restrooms, gay marriage, and other such racial or minority issues. My wife is one of them.

            The real aim of these rabid Zionists like Netanyahu in Israel and others in U.S want to control the Whole World. Russia and, other ME and Eurasian Countries is the first target before they get to China. Democratic Party has become the standard bearer of this Foreign Policy in cahoots with the NeoCon Republicans and old Right hardliners.
            European Vassal States always go along. It does not bode well for the World peace.

    • mark
      October 14, 2017 at 7:04 pm

      This referendum was monitored by 135 observers from 23 countries.

      • UkrainianSavior
        October 15, 2017 at 12:53 am

        No it wasn’t; nothing but fake news from RT.com as usual. But of course you’d believe it, since you’re an idiot.

        • Wake Thehellup
          October 15, 2017 at 5:53 am

          I really can’t tell whether you’re an authentic survivor of the anarchy generated by reich sector, svoboda and the other fascist groups working the protester crowds during the coup d’etat of Feb 2014 in kiev, who’s mind has been slushed as a result, or if you’re one of those who was doing the slushing and have just re-tooled since. Either way ‘PLEASE’, get some help!!!!!

        • Jake G
          October 15, 2017 at 6:55 am

          I actually know someone who has been there to monitor the referendum, and he says the same. And he sure as hell is not even watching RT.

    • Taras Tchaikovsky
      October 15, 2017 at 8:55 pm

      No! Russia invaded and stole Crimea.
      Then came the “vote”.
      Better to be taken over and annexed by Ukrainian Nazis than by Russian imperialists.
      Anyway Crimea belonged to Ukraine and Russia agreed to respect its sovereignty and territorial integrity.
      Ukraine should have known better than to trust the Russians.

    • GMC
      October 16, 2017 at 12:59 pm

      I lived/live there and it was a easy vote for the people here – AmeriKraine is stuck with all those Nazi soldiers but the only place they can send them is to the Mid east because they know Russia will destroy the Ukraine part of the country if they try to overrun Donbass or Crimea . Let’s not forget that in the 2015 UN vote to glorify Nazism and Fascism – the US and Ukraine voted to – Glorify it. Welcome to the 4th reich – America. Trump is your Man. Spacibo Misha

  2. j. D. D.
    October 14, 2017 at 2:25 pm

    There was no “Russian annextion of Crimea.” That is a myth perpetuated by President Obama. Rather, there was a referendum organized by the Supreme Council of Crimea in which 97%of those voting, amongst the turnout of 83%, supported reunification with Russia in response to the illegal ouster of the Ukraine’s elected president and his replacement by a regime it deemed illegitimte.

    • UkrainianSavior
      October 15, 2017 at 12:56 am

      Wrong the annexation is completely real.

      No, there was a fake vote initiated by aiming guns at the citizens of Ukraine to secede from it.

      There is absolutely nothing illegal about removing a corrupt president that aimed to weaken the country he purportedly presided. Russia invaded Ukraine because it realized its smaller, superior adjacent neighbor is finally standing up to it, and demonstrating that it will not be under its influence anymore.

      • Realist
        October 15, 2017 at 3:58 am

        Well, you’ve just established due cause for removing Poroshenko by whatever means. If Russia ever did actually invade Ukraine, you’d know about it… and not just through these hallucinations you’ve been having. But they don’t want the accursed place, so you’re stuck with Porky.

        • Taras Tchaikovsky
          October 15, 2017 at 9:04 pm

          The fact is that Russia has invaded Ukraine and stolen Crimea.
          It was a sneaky and cowardly attack.
          When they tried to take Donbas Ukraine quickly mobilised and if Russia “actually” invaded now they would suffer very heavy losses.
          Ukraine is accursed because it is next door to Russia and Russia is accursed because it has always had despots in power and they are stuck with one now – the dwarf Putin.

          • Realist
            October 16, 2017 at 5:00 am

            What was “sneaky” and “cowardly” was the use of anonymous snipers in the Maidan, which killed innocent protesters and police officers alike in order to foment violence, fear and overthrow the elected government. Admit the truth: you and your ilk are murderous international outlaws aided and abetted by a rogue American government. Following the putsch at the Maidan, you and your thugs quickly carried out the massacre of innocent labor union demonstrators in Odessa. Then you attacked more peaceful dissenters in the Donbass using the conscripted Ukrainian military. You are the perfect example of fascists run rampant.

            You are delusional if you think that your military has somehow intimidated Putin from invading Ukraine. It was the Donbass inhabitants alone that kicked the asses of your stormtroopers you sent into the region. Putin wants no part of ruling Donbass. How many times does he have to say it? Moreover, you congenital liars signed an international agreement in collaboration with France and Germany to peaceably end the conflict via the Minsk Accords. All you had to do was give some degree of home rule to your provinces (oblasts), allowing them to elect their own officials, rather than being entirely dictated to by the tyrants in Kiev. But Poroshenko and the rest of you criminals have not the slightest shred of honor. You never keep your word and you never want to give up theft and corruption. You talk tough while you hide behind the bullies in Washington. Take a better look at them and actually see how they defend “freedom,” “build” nations, and support their “allies.” You simple-minded fools are being used as convenient by Washington just like dozens of other police states were before you. Keep it up and your glorious homeland will soon look just like Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria and the numerous other places Uncle Sam has stuck his nose into.

      • Sam F
        October 15, 2017 at 8:11 am

        Everyone knows that there was no invasion of Ukraine by Russia. There was not a single photo or other evidence of an invasion. You are lying about that, so your comments are pointless.

      • frizzy gee
        October 15, 2017 at 6:58 pm

        “There is absolutely nothing illegal about removing a corrupt president”. Totally agree. Looking forward to the the next maidan so all your heroes can remove the new corrupt president & his oligarch cronies!

        • Taras Tchaikovsky
          October 15, 2017 at 9:06 pm

          You are of course talking about the Russian dwarf Putin.

  3. mike k
    October 14, 2017 at 2:27 pm

    Let me simply state that the various populations making up “Europe” are among the most vicious and warlike peoples on Earth, and are still moving to create more trouble in their troubled region, and around the world.

    • BobS
      October 14, 2017 at 8:11 pm

      The American apple didn’t fall far from the European tree.
      But malevolence is a universal human trait- white people just learned to excel at it due to the several hundred years they had access to better technology.

    • Taras Tchaikovsky
      October 15, 2017 at 6:57 pm

      Russia being the worst!

      • frizzy gee
        October 15, 2017 at 7:05 pm

        Ooh, what even worse than Rome? Greece? British Empire? Napolean, the Holy Roman Empire, Royal Houses of Europe, the kaiser, the Third Reich Nazis? Hmmm…you may wish to read up on a bit of history.

        • Taras Tchaikovsky
          October 15, 2017 at 9:08 pm

          Yes of course. Russia has been responsible for more death and misery than all those empires put together.

    • frizzy gee
      October 15, 2017 at 7:01 pm

      Compared to?!
      However, most of the other continents are run by ethnic Europeans too – US, Canada, South America, Australia…& your point is?

  4. Abe
    October 14, 2017 at 3:05 pm

    “Vladimir Putin’s Russia has been on the defensive these last few years. The Russians have been under and unprecedented assault by western governments, corporations, technocrats, NGOs, and even academia the likes of which has never been seen before. And the battle over Ukraine was and is the key to this new kind of warfare. When the decision was made by the legitimate Ukrainian government to forego the signing of an association agreement with the European Union, and to instead cling to closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union, a ‘Plan B’ was set in motion by the Americans and Europeans, and by the Ukraine oligarchs vested in the new business arrangements to be had. What followed was the 21st century equivalent of Hitler’s blitzkrieg operation Barbarossa. A trillion dollars worth of mainstream media, and ten trillion in political levers were drawn and aimed at Putin and Russia. This is fact, and unarguable, a situation that can be proven.

    “The Kiev regime installed by Obama agents Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt in Kiev was a mafia-like clown show consisting of new Nazis fanatical about Stephan Bandera’s support of Hitler in WW II, a punch drunk heavyweight boxer, a chocolate oligarch named Petro Poroshenko, Arseniy Yatsenyuk who headed up the Ukraine-European Union commission. Examining the sorted past of any of Ukraine’s new leadership will lead a dedicated researcher into dark deeds and corruption. […]

    “The UKROPs shelling unarmed civilians in the Donbass, the endless Russophobia campaigning in Ukraine and across Europe, and the seedy business deals going on underneath are now coming to light. Enter the world’s most trusted accounting firm, PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC).

    “News that PwC may be involved in a scandal over a multibillion-pound alleged fraud at Ukraine’s biggest bank may be the straw that broke the camel’s back. According to Ukraine’s central bank, some £4.2bn was siphoned out of Privat bank by two of Ukraine’s most powerful offshore oligarchs, Gennady Bogolyubov, and the Swiss-based Igor Kolomoisky. According to Ukraine officials, PwC had audited and approved the accounts without any mention of the missing money. Amazingly, only two media outlets have even bothered to report on the story, This is Money in the UK and The Times in India. While the financial media seems to be on a mission to cover up, Ukraine’s National Anticorruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU) has been highlighted by the IMF as a shining example of Kiev’s commitment to pursuing fundamental changes demanded by pro-EU protesters who ousted a Russian-backed regime in 2014. So, on the one hand there are the minions of the IMF and other financial interests, and on the other the embedded institutions such as the general prosecutor’s office and the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) of Ukraine seeming to back the ‘oligarch’ corruption plays. What’s worse, it was Americans like Senator John McCain who backed the practices of Ukraine mafiosos like Bogolyubov and Kolomoisky from the start.

    “[…] With Israel and the Jewish role in current world crises in question now, Bogolyubov has stories about him finding God in the Jewish press. Jewish News reports: ‘How an oligarch found faith and created a community’. Apparently Bogulyubov is intent on spending his ill-gotten Ukraine gains at the Bogolyubov Foundation, ‘to partner with God in bringing the world to a state of perfection’. You read this correctly, but there’s more. According to the documentation of this Bogolyubov Foundation, the trustees responsible for awarding grants to do-gooders include; GBF Management Limited Director Vyacheslav Anishchenko, who serves as Head of Restructuring and Asset Administration with Metals Solutions in London; Bogolyubov, and a man named Shmuel Kaminezki, who is the most widely known living Haredi Litvish Jewish gedolim outside of Israel. Talk about strange bedfellows. Vyacheslav Anishchenko is also the Director of Consolidated Minerals, one of the world’s largest manganese outfits. It should come as no surprise that fully 75% of the ore reserves of the former CIS lie within Ukraine’s borders and that most of that is in Eastern Ukraine. […]

    “So on the face of this Ukraine oligarch drama we have western financial institutions implicated, rabbis, mining outfits, and the vast array of vested interests that were clearly in favor of the EU and NATO taking over Ukraine.”

    Even the Torah May Not Protect Ukraine’s Corrupt
    By Phil Butler
    https://journal-neo.org/2017/06/02/even-the-torah-may-not-protect-ukraine-s-corrupt/

    • UkrainianSavior
      October 15, 2017 at 1:00 am

      More worthless, Ukrainophobic fake news.

      EuroMaidan was a people’s revolution, and completely legitimate; this is an indisputable fact, and no amount of Russian propaganda is going to make it any less true.

      Ukraine had a chance at economic prosperity and finally leaving Russia’s orbit, but the corrupt, criminal president opted to weaken it in every sense of the word by dropping the agreement; this is what caused the people to rebel against the Russian Nazis, not some imaginary US/EU conspiracy. If you weren’t an idiot, you’d know this.

      • Realist
        October 15, 2017 at 4:14 am

        Sorry, chump, but Yanukowych finally caught on that Russia had offered a much better loan package to bail out your sorry-ass country, plus he took account of the fact that the EU had absolutely no use for the products manufactured in Ukraine which were bought almost entirely by Russia. Not only would your country be paying usurious interest rates to the IMF, be required to privatise your land, resources and industries, but your employment rate would plummet due to losing your markets. The deal with the EU and NATO was suicidal to Ukraine. That’s why Yanukowych decided against it. Now, by repeatedly stabbing Russia in the back, even as it continues to buy your shit, sell you discounted gas and subsidize your banks, you will shortly be losing ALL those sources of income. Couldn’t be happening to a more deserving collection of assholes. That’s the well-earned thanks you get for killing thousands of ethnic Russians in the Donbass who refused to accede to your illegal coup. Show me one “saviour” in all of Ukraine. You are a population of criminals from a long line of criminals. Justice would be an invasion of that shithole followed by trials and incarceration of all its war criminals. But its not worth Russia’s sacrifice to save you from your worthless selves.

        • Taras Tchaikovsky
          October 15, 2017 at 7:49 pm

          So what business is it of yours? Ukraine has never invaded anyone let alone Russia that is the real shit hole..Russia has been invading its slaughtering its neighbours especially Ukraine for centuries. They have stolen their land and settled millions of their criminals there forcing the local population to speak their ugly language and teaching them to be corrupt.
          Russia invaded and stole Crimea that was mainly populated by ethnic Russians who may have voted to join Russia so do we let all ethnic minorities within other countries have the right to secede?
          We saw what happened to Chenya when they dared to declare independence from Russia in 1991 and they were not a minority but a nation of 2 million. Russia invaded and murdered nearly a tenth of the population.
          Donbas belongs to Ukraine and just as Crimea its people did not decide to secede, at least not before it was invaded by Russia and/or its proxies and forced to agree to their deranged philosophy.
          Justice would be an invasion of the shit hole called Russia followed by its war criminals facing a firing squad.

          • anon
            October 15, 2017 at 9:16 pm

            Anti-Russian Ukraine troll, nothing more. Your comment discredits itself. Do you work for W Ukraine, US agencies, oligarchs, or exactly whom?

          • frizzy gee
            October 15, 2017 at 10:14 pm

            Unfortunately, “the right to secede” varies depending who you are – It seems the powers that be are quite happy creating a “state” in Kosovo – a region of sovereign Serbia which was populated by a minority. However, this generosity does not seem to be extended to Catalonia for example. Crimea, as you may know, should never have been part of Ukraine, it was “gifted” by Kruschev & perhaps this should have been settled when the Soviet Union split up as the people of the Crimea have always considered themselves to be Russian as should the question of Chechnya & other territories, sadly this it always the problem within modern states which have mixed ethnicities. Unfortunately, Poroshenko has behaved similarly to Yelstin in Donbass – he has declared war against a seceding region & bombs his own citizens instead of engaging in dialogue. Would he do this if other areas of Ukraine declared independence? Probably. Not sure what you mean by “deranged philosophy”, but as far as “justice” is concerned I presume you mean the murderous oligarchs currently bombing their own citizens…but as ever, its complicated ….innit>?!

          • Realist
            October 16, 2017 at 5:24 am

            What business is it of mine? MY government of the United States poured MY tax dollars into aiding and abetting the illegal overthrow of the legitimately-elected government of Ukraine. Since then, they’ve been pouring more money and military assistance into the Ukraine to suppress the citizens in the Donbass who do not wish to recognise the illegitimate band of gangsters that have forcibly taken over. They want to be free, not enslaved by a bunch of racist Banderists who would persecute them. That’s what makes this my business.

            Read any actual representation of the truth: Russia did not invade Crimea and they did not steal it. They have been there since the 1700’s. Moreover, Crimea was never an integral part of Ukraine. It was legally an independent republic that exercised its right to separate from Ukraine and re-unify with Russia. The Crimeans decided this in a vote. It wasn’t a decision made at the barrel of a gun such as you enforced in Kiev and tried to enforce in the Donbass. If you believe in self-determination for Chechnya, then you must certainly allow the same for the Donbass. It was never integral to Ukraine at any time in history. It used to be part of Imperial Russia and, along with parts of Poland, Hungary and Romania, was merely tossed together into an artificial entity called the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet Union, by Stalin whom I am sure your have the utmost respect for. If you Ukrainian ultra-nationalists hadn’t decided to repress and kill Russians in Odessa, Kharkov and the Donbass mere days after your Maidan coup d’etat, I’m sure none of this madness would have occurred. You took some bad advice from Victoria Nuland, John McCain and the rest of the American neocons.

      • Louis Joseph
        October 15, 2017 at 4:45 am

        @UkrainianSavior, any comments about those pictures: https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/3743249.html

        What about the condemnations from the Simon Wiesenthal Center they are also “fake news”?
        http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=8776547&ct=15001241
        http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Wiesenthal-Center-slams-Ukrainian-Holocaust-bill-408575

      • Jake G
        October 15, 2017 at 6:59 am

        You delusional Ukrops are everywhere. I am just surprised youre alone. Normally you have a huge bot army following you. But I guess thats not worth the effort on a site where you cant manipulate comment votes.

      • Sam F
        October 15, 2017 at 8:25 am

        When not in agreement with the economic policy of an administration, a group should try to change that by democratic means. Otherwise you reject democracy and revert to force. You could have campaigned for other economic policies rather than overthrow the elected government. So your argument would have to be based on evidence that that democracy was not working over time. Instead you invent a Russian invasion, confident that the US can be fooled with lies rather than convinced with evidence.

        Despite the infusion of $5 billion from the US, Ukraine was in rough shape economically. The eastern provinces and Crimea were dependent upon the Russian economy. If trade with Europe was a better deal, why did you not seek both? Why did you seek military alignment with NATO where there was no military threat? If that was not the work of US manipulation, then your leaders were fools to get involved in creating a dispute between great powers.

      • Anna
        October 15, 2017 at 9:55 am

        Hey, what’s the name of your prime minister? Volodymyr Groysman? Good job.
        By the way, you have been “liberated” by the US ziocons (in a company of local ne-Nazi and the badly exploited honest Ukrainians) in 2014, three years ago. Since then, your economy has collapsed and the corruption has reached stratospheric heights (look at you beloved Kolomojsky, the triple Jewish citizen and financier of the neo-Nazi Azov). You have been used by ziocons and banksters. Monsanto is ready to make a wasteland of the black belt and the Pentagon is ready to deliver very expensive WMD on your soil to “defend” you. Meanwhile, Poland, Romania, and Hungary want their land back. Don’t you remember that it was the bad Soviet Union that created Ukraine by taking the land from the neighbors?
        Here are your leaders: Nuland-Kagan, Yatz, McCain (Tokyo Rose), and Ukrainian neo-Nazi proud of their insignia and their hatred towards everything Russian. The Kagans’ clan certainly approves your sentiments.

        • Sam F
          October 15, 2017 at 7:40 pm

          Anna, can you give us a link or summary of the history of land cessions to Ukraine under the USSR? I knew of Crimea but not Poland, Romania, and Hungary. Thanks.

          • Dave P.
            October 16, 2017 at 3:23 am

            Nadezda,

            Yes. It is a very accurate map of the Ukraine from seventeenth century to 1954 telling how the Russian provinces were attached to Ukraine – it is from my reading the book on Russian History by Phillip Longworth the British historian recently. Odessa, Kharkov are Russian Cities.

            It would have been wise on the part of Ukrainian Political leadership to have a Federal Constitution, keeping it’s link to Russia as well. But many Western Ukrainians are Nationalistic and Nazi thugs. Ukraine was never a Country in history. And those in power now, and this Nazi torch lite march yesterday is a good proof that the Ukraine State is not capable of governing itself peacefully. It is imperative that the South Eastern Ukraine – Russian Provinces – should be detached from Ukraine, and they should be free to rejoin Russia.

        • Taras Tchaikovsky
          October 15, 2017 at 8:45 pm

          This constant name calling is getting very tiresome.
          Like Russia doesn’t have Neo Nazis or their equivalent – ultra nationalists.
          Russians are imperialists who are big on ultra nationalism.
          Borders and territories have ebbed and flowed in Europe for centuries however after WWII they were “finally” established and recognised by all nations.
          The collapse of the Soviet Union saw the emergence of many “new” independent countries with defined borders that Russia continues to violate as it longs to re-establish it empire..
          Regardless of who or what created Ukraine it is like any other country, it has pieces of land that may have belonged to a neighbour rightly or wrongly that has people living there who may have lived there for centuries who are of a different ethnicity and may long to return to their roots taking the land with them.
          It is in Russia’s interest to sow the seeds of discontent while it rules over its territory with an iron fist no matter what ethnic minority within (and there are many) may lay claim to what they consider to be their piece of dirt.

          • anon
            October 15, 2017 at 9:11 pm

            You dump stock propaganda lines impugning motives without evidence or argument. This is unacceptable in debate.

            You pretend that borders mean nothing except the ones you wish for Ukraine, ignoring its history. You have no evidence whatsoever that Russia is violating borders or trying to establish an empire. You accuse Russia of sowing discontent in east Ukraine and Crimea rather than accepting that these areas were abused by west Ukraine after its coup.

            An irrational comment does not persuade; it shows that the goal is selfish and unreasonable.

          • frizzy gee
            October 15, 2017 at 10:30 pm

            Yes, most countries have minorities & borders which have been re-drawn through the ages – so which peoples have the right to secede? How is it decided? What will Ukraine do if some of their other, smaller minorities decide to secede? Will it bomb them too before talking?
            Russian may have a small number of neo-Nazis but these are not comparable to the Bandera movement (UPA, OUN, etc) which has been going since before the war & has a been financed since by some Western governments. These Nazis, as you must know, have a chequered (now whitewashed) history, been well organised, growing & have now infiltrated government – Praviy Sektor, Svoboda etc. This is one of the reasons Crimeans & those in Donbass were driven to secede because they have an understanding of what Banderovites are.
            “Russians are imperialists”? – are they any worse than any other empire that has existed? Imperialism is alive & well in the shape of the EU which insists on expanding & “globalism”. Ukraine is soon to get a taste of that type of imperialism, starting with IMF

      • Adrian Engler
        October 15, 2017 at 10:50 am

        It is quite typical of extremist demagogues to claim that some political force, especially one that uses violence, represents “the people”.

        Certainly, a part of the Ukrainian population supported these far-right paramilitary groups who made elected politicians flee the country because of credible death threats and then let the Ukrainian parliament under their armed watch break the Ukrainian constitution by declaring the Ukrainian president ousted without even a semblance of a correct impeachment procedure, but in no way do these forces who trampled the Ukrainian constitution “the Ukrainian people”.

        Which “chance at economic prosperity”? Do you mean the association agreement with the EU? Moldova has had such an association agreement for quite some time, and does anyone seriously claim that Moldova is a prosperous country? Is Ukraine prosperous now that it has this association agreement?

        Rational economic policies for Ukraine would have meant to strive for good economic relations both with the EU and with Russia. A significant part of Ukraine’s current problems is due to cutting the country off from economic relations with Russia because of ideological reasons (see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/09/ukraine-needs-russia-nicolai-petro).

        In 2013 a basic problem with the EU’s negotiations with Ukraine was that it neglected the significance of free-trade agreements between Russia and Ukraine. It is understandable that Russia could not accept that customs-free goods could be imported from the EU to Russia via Ukraine without Russia having a say in this. Both Yanukovich and the Russian government therefore wanted trilateral talks of the EU, Ukraine and Russia, which would have made it possible to find a solution with which Ukraine could have had good economic relations both with the EU and with Russia, but the EU did not agree to that in time in 2013, so the Ukrainian government was in a difficult position. Probably, these problems could have been resolved if all side had agreed to using peaceful means and to respect the Ukrainian constitution, but unfortunately, far-right demagogues exploited that situation to topple the democratically elected Ukrainian government by force.

      • frizzy gee
        October 15, 2017 at 8:51 pm

        “not some imaginary US/EU conspiracy.” Have you not yet realised that the US/EU were & still are using the Ukraine to wind up Putin? You are just part of the “great game” in US in which NATO creeps ever closer to Russia (a long term plan). Meanwhile, if the IMF (&EU oligarchs), can exploit the situation to earn as much money out of Ukraine as it can, all good. It will also prepare Ukraine for any future dealings – economic reforms e.g. taxation, devalution etc. Win ! Win!

      • Beard681
        October 16, 2017 at 1:43 pm

        Since I wasn’t there, and have little interest, I don’t know who invaded who. However, if you think the EU was a path to “economic prosperity” for a country with a heavy industry economy and deep in debt you are mistaken. At best, Greece style austerity was in the cards. Now the country is being propped up by aide (Coal from PA?) and military spending as part of Cold War 2.

    • Rob Roy
      October 15, 2017 at 5:04 pm

      Thanks, Abe, for your contribution of solid information to the discussion. I will note one little thing. When you say, “When the decision was made by the legitimate Ukrainian government to forego the signing of an association agreement with the European Union, and to instead cling to closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union…” I believe Yanukovych went to the EU first and asked for $30bn and got turned down; then he went to Russia and was told he would be given $15bn. That’s why he decided to stay with Russia. He needed the money. Then, of course, he had to flee for his life.

      • Abe
        October 15, 2017 at 8:15 pm

        Policy analyst Phil Butler wrote the article above.

        Ukraine needed money back in 2013, and needs it far more desperately now as a result of the 2014 coup d’etat and subsequent gutting of the Ukrainian economy.

        According to Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov “the extremely harsh conditions” of a loan offer presented by the IMF on 20 November 2013, which included big budget cuts and a 40% increase in gas bills, impelled Ukrainian government’s decision to suspend preparations for signing the EU Association Agreement.

        The Euromaidan protests began late at night on 21 November 2013.

        On 21 November 2013, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych stated “an alternative for reforms in Ukraine and an alternative for European integration do not exist…We are walking along this path and are not changing direction”.

        On November 29, 2013, President Yanukovych attended the 28–29 November EU summit in Vilnius but the Association Agreement was not signed. Yanukovych stated that Ukraine still wanted to sign the Association Agreement but that it needed substantial financial aid to compensate Ukraine for the agreement’s impact on trade with Russia.

        Yanukovych proposed starting three-way talks between Russia, Ukraine, and the EU. He also urged Brussels to help Ukraine soften the terms of a possible loan from the IMF. The EU rejected trilateral talks and asked Yanukovich to commit to sign the Association Agreement, which he refused to do.

        At the end of a summit President of the European Commission José Manuel Barroso reiterated that the EU’s offer to Ukraine in terms of signing an Association Agreement remained on the table. Yanukovych stated that he still intended to sign the Association Agreement at a later date “once we get down to work and find solutions for economic problems, when we get the opportunity to sign a strategic partnership agreement with Russia and everything else that we need to do, so that normal relations can be established between the European Union, Russia, and Ukraine… this is our responsibility”.

        According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters) between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported the Euromaidan protests, while between 42% and 50% opposed it. Polls also showed that Ukraine was divided in age: while majority of young people were pro-EU, older generations (50 and above) more often prefer the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia.

        Moody’s Investors Service reported on 4 December 2013 “As a consequence of the severity of the protests, demand for foreign currency is likely to rise” and noted that this was another blow to Ukraine’s already poor solvency.

        First deputy Prime Minister Serhiy Arbuzov stated on 7 December Ukraine risked a default if it failed to raise $10 billion “I asked for a loan to support us, and Europe [the EU] agreed, but a mistake was made – we failed to put it on paper.”

        On 3 December, Azarov warned that Ukraine might not be able to fulfill its natural gas contracts with Russia.

        On 5 December, Prime Minister Azarov stated that “money to finance the payment of pensions, wages, social payments, support of the operation of the housing and utility sector and medical institutions do not appear due to unrest in the streets” and he added that authorities were doing everything possible to ensure the timely financing of them.

        On December 11, 2013. Azarov said Ukraine had asked for 20 Billion Euros (US$27) in loans and aid to offset the cost of the EU deal. The EU was willing to offer 610 million euros (838 million US) in loans, however Russia was willing to offer 15 billion US in loans. Russia also offered Ukraine cheaper gas prices. As a condition for the loans, the EU required major changes to the regulations and laws in Ukraine, whereas Russia did not.

        The Ukrainian government was forced to postponed social payments on December 11, 2013, due to “the temporarily blocking of the government”. Reuters commented (when talking about Euromaidan) “The crisis has added to the financial hardship of a country on the brink of bankruptcy” and added that (at the time) investors thought it more likely than not that Ukraine would default over the next five years (since it then cost Ukraine over US$1 million a year to insure $10 million in state debt).

        Fitch Ratings reported on 16 December that the (political) “standoff” had led to “greater the risk that political uncertainty will raise demand for foreign currency, causing additional reserve losses and increasing the risk of disorderly currency movement”. It also added “Interest rates rose sharply as the National Bank sought to tighten hryvnia liquidity.”

        First Deputy Finance Minister Anatoliy Miarkovsky stated on 17 December the Ukrainian government budget deficit in 2014 could amount to about 3% with a “plus or minus” deviation of 0.5%.

        On 18 December, the day after an economic agreement with Russia was signed, Azarov stated, “Nothing is threatening stability of the financial-economic situation in Ukraine now. Not a single economic factor.”

        On 2 January 2014, Minister of Social Policy of Ukraine Natalia Korolevska stated that January 2014 social payments would begin according to schedule.

        On 21 January 2014, the Kiev City State Administration claimed that protests in Kiev had so far caused the city more than 2 million US dollars worth of damage. It intended to claim compensation for damage caused by all demonstrators, regardless of their political affiliation.

        On 5 February 2014, the hryvnia fell to a five-year low against the US dollar.

        On 21 February 2014, Standard & Poor’s cut Ukraine’s credit rating to CCC; adding that the country risked default without “significantly favourable changes”. Standard & Poor’s analysts believed the compromise deal of the same day between President Yanukovych and the opposition made it “less likely Ukraine would receive desperately needed Russian aid, thereby increasing the risk of default on its debts”

        According to a January 2014 poll, 45% of Ukrainians supported the protests, and 48% of Ukrainians disapproved of the increasingly violent Euromaidan rioters.

        On 18 February, during occupation of government buildings in Lviv, protesters stole around 1,200 pistols and Kalashnikov rifles from the police.

        Escalating bloodshed culminated in sniper attacks on 18–20 February 2014.

        On 21 February, a compromise agreement after hours of negotiations led by the European Union mediators and Foreign Ministers Rados?aw Sikorski of Poland, Laurent Fabius of France, and Frank-Walter Steinmeier of Germany. Officially called the Agreement on Settlement of Political Crisis in Ukraine, it was signed by both President Yanukoych and opposition leaders after the overnight negotiations.

        The agreed-to provisions included a restoration of the constitution as it was between 2004 and 2010; constitutional reform to be completed by September; early presidential elections no later than December 2014; an investigation into the violence conducted under joint monitoring of the administration, the opposition, and the Council of Europe; a veto on imposing a state of emergency; amnesty for protesters arrested since 17 February; the surrender of public buildings occupied by protesters; the forfeiture of illegal weapons; “new electoral laws”, and the formation of a new Central Election Commission. The three EU foreign ministers signed the document as witnesses.

        Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh immediately rejected the agreement. Andriy Parubiy reiterated demands for the resignation of Yanukovych. Volodymyr Parasiuk threatened an armed coup and vowed to storm Yanukovych’s Mezhyhirya residence.

        On 21 February, President Yanukovych and Parliament declared 22 and 23 February to be days of mourning “due to the loss of human life as a result of mass disturbances”. Yanukovych flew to Kharkiv and met with Mykhailo Dobkin, governor of Kharkiv Oblast.

        In Parliament, Speaker Rybak submitted his resignation, citing illness. Oleksandr Turchynov declared that government ministers had disappeared. Parliament, deputies voted 328–0 (of 447 total deputies) to schedule a presidential election for 25 May.

        They did not follow the impeachment process specified by the constitution, which would have involved formally charging Yanukovych with a crime, a review of the charge by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and a three-fourths majority vote—at least 338 votes in favor—in Parliament. Instead, Parliament declared that Yanukovych “withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner” and cited “circumstances of extreme urgency” as the reason for early elections. Lawmakers then elected Turchynov to be the chairman of Parliament and acting president and prime minister of Ukraine.

        Turchynov claimed that Yanukovych had agreed to resign as president, but after consulting with advisers, he disavowed that and even pre-recorded a resignation statement. Yanukovych said he would not resign or leave the country and called Parliament’s decisions “illegal.” He added, “The events witnessed by our country and the whole world are an example of a coup d’état,” and compared them to the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany in the 1930s.

        • GMC
          October 16, 2017 at 1:26 pm

          Excellent post. And if I may comment to the fact that in 2014 and 15 the Kyiv regime cut off Pensions to those folks in Crimea and Donbass. My rough estimate { my wife was one of those pensioners} is about 1 million+ folks since these 2 areas are a heavy area for pensioners. Times the 1 million by 100 US dollars a month and someone in Kyiv is pocketing 100 million a month. Some of my wife’s family in Ukraine did not get a huge raise in the pensions and in fact had a very hard time even paying for the utilities – that have tripled since Yanuk fled. Yanuk was a thief but he made sure all utilities were very much discounted for the people. Russian backed Ukraine money was 5 to 8 to 1 buck, what is now that AmeriKraine owns it – 26 to 1 ? Spacibo

    • Taras Tchaikovsky
      October 15, 2017 at 8:11 pm

      Ukraine is an independent country that has a right to decide with whom it wishes to be friends.
      Russia has been invading and slaughtering its neighbours for centuries so who wants to be a friend of an evil and corrupt bully like that?
      You speak of Stefan Bandera and his support of Hitler that was a choice between two evils. When the Nazis invaded Ukraine many welcomed them as liberators from the unimaginable evil that the country had endured under Stalin.
      10 million Ukrainians were starved to death in the artificial famine known as Holodomor in 1932-33 that was engineered by the Kremlin.
      Bandera simply saw the enemy of his enemy as his friend and wreaked vengeance on his tormentors – Russians and Jews.
      Russians seem to forget that they formed an alliance with Hitler and colluded to invade and partition Poland that saw the start of WWII.

      • Abe
        October 15, 2017 at 8:26 pm

        The United States and the EU rejected Ukrainian independence and backed a violent coup d’etat to overthrow its elected government.

        Washington and Brussels made it clear that Ukraine had no right to decide with whom it wished to be friends.

        Ukraine’s rights are now reserved to crushing financial debt and serving as a parking lot for NATO military hardware.

      • frizzy gee
        October 15, 2017 at 10:48 pm

        “Russia has been invading and slaughtering its neighbours for centuries so who wants to be a friend of an evil and corrupt bully like that?” – hey remember Napolean? Kaiser? Hitler? to name the obvious ones? Do you think the same about France & Germany?
        Bandera assisted the Nazis in his ethnic cleansing quite happily – remember the Poles in Volyn & the Jews? Ukrainians were encouraged to slaughter them – this was not all the actions of the Germans, this was UPA driven & part of their nazi ideology. Would you say their actions were evil? I am sure the Poles would.
        The famine of 1933 (one of many in the former Russian empire) may well have been helped along by the authorities, but it was in no way confined to Ukraine as it effected S. Russia, Kazakhstan & other areas. It has been politicised as being directed at Ukrainians with the help of the nationalist diaspora & historians have not proved this was the case. In actual fact the Western part of Ukraine did not suffer from famine but mostly the central & eastern parts (which are ethnically mixed).
        “Bandera simply saw the enemy of his enemy as his friend and wreaked vengeance on his tormentors – Russians and Jews” – could this be said of Hitler? This is to demean & minimise what the movement stood for, if this was truly the case the movement would not have survived decades & Bandera would not be the national hero he is deemed to be by so many. But I think you already know all this….

      • Realist
        October 16, 2017 at 5:39 am

        Lvov used to be a Polish city. You delightful Ukrainians not only killed all the Jews there during World War II but you made sure to kill every Polish resident so you could claim the land and the property, which you were rewarded with by those hated Russians after the conflict. You emulated your murdering German allies to a tee. I acknowledge these well-known truths even though I am half German by heritage. Stop using your ancestors to excuse your very own current depravity.

    • Daniel
      October 15, 2017 at 11:11 pm

      Wow, Abe! You do have you finger on the pulse. Wasn’t Igor Kolomoisky the principle funding source for the Azov Battalion, by far the most nazi of the neo-nazi militant groups on Ukraine? I remember being somewhat flummoxed that Jewish groups like ADL were telling Ukrainian Jews to shut up about the sudden rise of Jew-hatred in Ukraine during and after the coup. Why were Jews against Jews?

      But then when I read about Igor, I realized it was really fascists FOR fascists.

  5. Kalen
    October 14, 2017 at 3:12 pm

    In face of utter hysteria and nonsense about Russians in MSM this take on Ukrainian civil war seems reasonable and balanced.

    But it is not. Far from it, full of half truths and wrong assertions, and repeated fabrication of DoS propaganda known for decades.

    Few points: there was no annexation of Crimea to Russian but reunification, reintegration of Crimea into existing administrative structures of RF for two reasons the Ukrainian state did not exist before 1993 whatsoever, while Russia annexed Crimea from Ottoman Empire in XVIII century, and hence Ukraine cannot have any claim to Crimea only Turks may have one while weak since they themselves took it from native people. However one may state the fact the US annexed California, Hawaii,PR and many other territories recognized as distinct administrations.

    Soviet republic of Ukraine was a soviet creation with no international standing, and covered on central and eastern Ukraine area, eastern border of contemporary Ukraine are internal Soviet administrative division lines changed arbitrarily, one such a change was designation of Crimea to Ukrainian SSR not to independent country, no international borders were not established in 1954 and no border treaty was signed in last twenty years, hence legally Crimea was under temporary Ukrainian administration for last 24 years and now returned to Russians.

    What is more important that even during Soviet era the port of Sevastopol was never under Ukrainian admistration so could not be annexed in 2014 by Russians.

    Moreover, Russia in spring 2014 did not help,militarily Donbass defenders of legitimate local Ukrainian authorities under assault from Nazis from Kiev and Ukrainian Army, they prepared defense using deserters from Ukrainian army and militia armed by taking over Ukrainian military bases in Donbass. In fact Russia implicitly recognized Kiev Coup leadership, sent low level military observers on Nazi side of the front lines, refused to recognize DPR and LPR, despite repeated requests, continued to supply nat gas to Kiev while they refused to pay for it and continue appeasement with the Nazis and the west while Russian Embassy in Kiev was burning and ethnic Russians were murdered and intimidated like in Odessa.

    In fact it was Russian opposition not Putin that recruited some may be 1500 to join defenses of Donbas and that included volunteers at first mostly veterans of Chechnya war and later from at least ten countries like France, Spain, Serbia, Germany etc., in 2014 Kiev regime attacked Donbass with about 50k soldiers, while there were about 10k to 15k militia defenders 90% Ukrainian citizen, many veterans of Afghan war.

    And many more misinformation.

    For more info:
    https://contrarianopinion.wordpress.com/2015/01/18/ukraine-no-country-for-no-man/

    • UkrainianSavior
      October 15, 2017 at 1:01 am

      There was no reunification, there was an invasion and annexation; no amount of worthless, pro-Russian blogposts coming from you or any other pseudo-intellectual idiot will change this.

      • Kalen
        October 15, 2017 at 2:26 am

        No facts, just venom of hatred as expected from desperate Nazi, foaming from his lying mouth, not to avail, hitting the wall of objective truth, irrefutable historical facts and devastating reality of Kiev Nazi regime, only to be squashed like cockroach by their western sponsors as soon as western sanity returns, a bastard of Europe sharing history of Doncov genocidal nightmare of a brief Nazi statelet under Hitler protectorate during WWII.

        Kiev Nazis grounded in western Ukraine only are the grave enemies of true Ukrainian independence.

      • Sam F
        October 15, 2017 at 8:35 am

        No amount of denial on your part will change that fact that Crimea was part of Russia for two centuries or so until transferred to Ukraine in the 1950s. Like the eastern provinces, over 80 percent of the population is ethnically/linguistically Russian. So why do you want it? Why do you want to dominate people rather than create a viable nation?

      • Alan Cohen
        October 16, 2017 at 2:53 am

        This is correct. It was an illegal annexation of territory from another sovereign state. A clear violation of international law by Russia. It was also a clear Russian violation of clauses 1 – 3 of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. If you read Budapest Memorandum (six clauses, 30 seconds, read it) it’s easy to see Russia is in blatant violation of it.

      • GMC
        October 16, 2017 at 1:35 pm

        This Nam Vet lives and lived in Crimea years before this coup in Kyiv – Amerikraine Savior is total propagandize , programed Jerk and guys like this is why Kryme will never – ever – be a Nazi whore like Kyiv is.

  6. mike k
    October 14, 2017 at 3:28 pm

    In support of my contention above re; the dangerous and warlike tendencies of the Europeans, consider the moves described in the link below –

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/10/14/nato-pa-adopts-highly-provocative-resolution-amid-military-build-up-black-sea-region.html

    • Tannenhouser
      October 14, 2017 at 10:04 pm

      I would just like to point out that while there are Euro nations in NowAnotherTerroristOrganisation it’s provocations used as support for a contention that Europe is the most war like is rather weak. Uber weak actually. Go fish mike.

  7. October 14, 2017 at 4:50 pm

    John McCain is an evil person.

    • Annie
      October 14, 2017 at 5:45 pm

      I don’t know if McCain is evil, but he certainly is a fanatic. I have a cousin who is an international lawyer affiliated with the military, and he was telling me, no lecturing me, on how dangerous Russia was, and by annexing the Crimea it was in breech of international law. That we supported and abetted a coup in Ukraine didn’t seem to bother him, well, he didn’t think we did, or that we went to war with Iraq knowing we were doing so on a lie, didn’t bother him either, and there he knew we did. I told him that if Russia had toppled one country after another in the Middle East, in breech of international law, I would be afraid. It went on like that, and you realize these people are very much, or exactly, like religious fanatics. There’s no middle ground, no room for discussion. I’m right, you’re wrong. Certainly some of them know they are full of sh*t, but quite a few of them don’t. For some it’s a black and white world, and it distorts their sense of reality.

      • UkrainianSavior
        October 15, 2017 at 1:03 am

        Yes, such is the case with you, thinking that Russians are innocent cherubs. You’re as stupid as the common Russian.

        • Annie
          October 15, 2017 at 2:41 am

          Obviously you have never read anything posted on this site, and I say that based on your response. You really don’t belong here, so take your hate somewhere else UkrainianSavior.

        • frizzy gee
          October 15, 2017 at 10:53 pm

          Ukrainian Savior – why resort to hate? This is typical of people who cannot debate – where are you facts? your logic? Typical Bandera – go be a “savior”!

  8. Reality Check
    October 14, 2017 at 4:51 pm

    Well, if it’s to be a resumption of war, best it be done soon and rid the world of Ukraine’s neo-nazi project once and for all. I for one would love to see McCain’s deathbed reaction to his bucket list being kicked not down the road but into well-deserved oblivion.

    • UkrainianSavior
      October 15, 2017 at 1:04 am

      There are no Ukrainian Neo-Nazis, only Russian ones. Russia’s Nazi (Read: Overall) existence will soon be destroyed, and you along with it. McCain and I will be laughing heartily while pissing on your early, well-deserved grave. Ukraine will never die.

  9. Chris
    October 14, 2017 at 6:02 pm

    Thank you Consortium News and Robert Parry along with your excellent reporting team for bringing light to these geopolitical crimes of our ‘leaders’. You have led the real fight revealing the truth all along. I would like to add a link to my newest piece on what I believe the global elite are now up to.

    Beyond The Divisive Agenda – Defining Donald Trump As A Tool of The Zionist-Elite And Why He Was Really Placed In Power To Wage War on Iran

    https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/10/13/beyond-the-divisive-agenda-defining-donald-trump-as-a-tool-of-the-zionist-elite-and-why-he-was-really-placed-in-power-to-wage-war-on-iran/

    • Joe Tedesky
      October 14, 2017 at 9:04 pm

      That was a good link Chris. It is another well written article describing to how the American public, and the world, are being deceived to no end. I actually believe that many Americans may have a hunch that we are being ‘played’ but whether it be partisan politics, or just blind faith, not much of a concern does it seem to matter, or so it seems. Of course trying to rely on our lying corporate owned media doesn’t help to give someone any idea that the American people do reject all these wars. Instead we all just file in lines to get patted down, and go along our way believing that Big Brother is watching out for us.

      Nothing in America can change as long as our choices for elected offices are controlled the way they are. This condition, which is already long past it’s due date, isn’t going to change any to soon, as long as we vote for the lessor of the two evils. That’s why, probably in the end there isn’t much of a difference between a Hillary or a Donald, because only the Shadow Government knows what’s going down. Joe

      • Dave P.
        October 15, 2017 at 2:32 am

        Joe, this well written article in the link by Chris exposes a lot what is going on under the surface with Trump in the White House. I have been thinking about it lately that the whole Establishment and the Ruling Elite are working in cahoots with Trump. This tweeting and sometimes bizarre kind of behavior on the part of Trump is a show too to keep public busy in these games. I had come to the conclusion that well meaning U.S. Citizens who want peace have been fooled big time again.

        I watched Vladimir Pozner, who is French, Russian, and U.S. citizen, on the Youtube. He was talking to American Citizens for Peace group in 2015, who were on a good will mission to Moscow, Russia. Vladmir Pozner has his talk show on Russia’s main Channel. He is no friend of Putin. He is in fact a critic of Putin. He told the American group that Russia had accepted the borders. All they wanted was that NATO not to be extended to Ukraine. They simply wanted Ukraine to be a neutral country with economic and social links to Russia as well. After all there are more than fifteen million people in Ukraine who are Russian speaking and many with relatives in Russia. They have shared history of thousand years.

        It seems like that It is not going to be very peaceful Christmas. The American public is being prepared for more Wars to come. And most of them have no comprehension of what is going on. Rachel Maddow, Wolf Blitzer, Judy Woodruff . . . are only source of the Truth they believe in.

        • Joe Tedesky
          October 15, 2017 at 9:30 am

          We can only imagine the gigantic mind melt that goes on inside the White House, as a new administration sets in. By the looks of it, it looks to me like JFK’s outcome gets brought up a lot. I’m also feeling pretty certain, that a person could be swayed by influences that may come with the job. I sometimes wonder, if it were me, would I have the will power and strength to stay the course of my own convictions, or would I too morph into a Neocon? I mean what’s in the water in that place, or is there a Stockholm Syndrome going on in the Oval Office. I’m not making excuses for anyone, just speculating, that’s all.

          I too think Americans are being prepped up for war. Whether the first shot get fired in N Korea, Syria-Iran, or in the Ukraine, I do believe it won’t take long for it to go global. I say this, because the only way an enemy could beat the U.S. is by them forming a coalition, and then they do everything at once, thus the U.S. is stretched thin. I’m no general, but to me this could be a viable contingency among some other viable contingency plans where the U.S. military would be hard pressed to survive, let alone win.

          None of us want this Dave, but there are plenty of things we all don’t want. If only we could rid our planet of these warmongers, who profit from these kind of things.

          Peace brother Dave. Joe

      • Al Pinto
        October 15, 2017 at 9:38 am

        You are correct, it is a good link. So is your conclusion of:

        “That’s why, probably in the end there isn’t much of a difference between a Hillary or a Donald, because only the Shadow Government knows what’s going down.”

        Hypothetically, even if the “elected offices” filled by people who are not “controlled”, it will not make any difference for the Shadow Government. Trump had not been controlled by the Shadow Government, but that has changed by now and business as usual for the kleptocrats. The first couple of sentences of the link summed it up eloquently, worth quoting:

        “Donald Trump came into the office of the U.S. presidency on January 21, 2017 declaring that he was going to “drain the swamp” and mockingly hinting that the “columns at the CIA need to be rebuilt”. Well, as of October 11, 2017 that hasn’t happened. In actuality, thus far, the opposite has happened. Trumps initial cabinet has been mostly dissolved and replaced with a number of US generals who have been neatly filtered in to take key leadership positions….it’s almost as if it was planned all along.”

        Maybe the rumors of the Shadow Government had wanted HRC to loose and hammer Trump in to submission with the Russia-phobia and other “documents” are true after all. HRC would have been a much tougher opponent for the Shadow Government with all of her experiences at high up in the government.

        God, I don’t believe that I’ve just praised HRC, even if just a hidden way…. :)

        • Joe Tedesky
          October 15, 2017 at 10:53 am

          Don’t worry I understood what you meant, and I don’t think your comment makes you a Hillary lover, Al Pinto. Trying to analyze a Shadow Government is a very hard thing to do, because it is a Shadow, and not about the true representation of who’s in charge. Good to have your input Al. Joe

        • Rob Roy
          October 15, 2017 at 6:47 pm

          Al, the Shadow Government wanted and expected to have Hillary as President. She was all ready to go ahead with the NWO plan…bomb Iran (that would have happened already) and convince people Russia was to be feared (not true) and thus we should pull a coup and a regime change in Russia. Not making this up. It’s in her emails that were leaked by the DNC to Wikileaks. (Not hacked by Russia.) As it turned out, Trump, being rogue, had to be whipped into shape without even knowing it, and it’s worked. He never was a puppet of Putin, but became, as planned, a puppet of Netanyahu; note that Israel wants the opposite of what Putin wants.

  10. Zachary Smith
    October 14, 2017 at 6:20 pm

    Indeed, if Russia was on the precipice of launching a land war in Eastern Europe, would it have cut its defense budget by 25 percent to $48 billion a year, as was recently announced by the Kremlin?

    Russia is far too weak to launch an attack on Western Europe – even if it wanted to. No, the reverse is true; the neocons are betting Russian weakness combined with the Western buildup on its borders will allow Ukraine to drive east and reconquer the break-away provinces.

    In my opinion the chicken-hawk Lindsay Graham and the dying John McCain and all their necon buddies are risking a major conflict on European soil. Because of its weakness Russia will immediately begin to use tactical nuclear weapons if necessary. Unlike how Trump & Company are treating Puerto Rico – actual US citizens! – the Russians take ethnic connections seriously. The Eastern Ukrainians – many of whom are Russian speaking and of Russian stock – are going to be defended from a Nazi slaughter if it comes to that.

    If the clueless Europeans keep on with their help in poking and prodding of the bear, they’re going to have more radiation than that from Chernobyl to contend with.

    • UkrainianSavior
      October 15, 2017 at 1:08 am

      The only Nazis causing any sort of slaughter are the Russians and their DNR SS whores; this is an indisputable fact.

      Putler claims that Ukrainians are Russians’ “brothers”, and yet kills them on a regular basis; only an idiot like you would try to rationalize this.

      If clueless idiots like you aren’t soon eradicated and Ukraine isn’t soon saved and Russia destroyed, you, your entire family, and the shithole you reside in will have to deal with more radiation than Chernobyl, Fukushima, Starfish Prime, and 3 Mile Island combined.

      • Realist
        October 15, 2017 at 4:26 am

        Seems to me the only Ukrainians being killed are the cannon fodder that Porky has sent into the Donbass to kill the ethnic Russians who live there. Not surprisingly, the inhabitants have defended themselves against you killers, and the fight did not involve Russian troops, just freedom-loving people defending themselves against Ukrainian tyranny.

        So, you want to bring on the nukes, eh? Are you sure you’re not an American suicide cult neocon writing under a bogus name?

        • Taras Tchaikovsky
          October 15, 2017 at 11:08 pm

          Nobody has sent anybody to kill ethnic Russians.
          Ukraine has never invaded anyone especially Russia and has never killed or threatened to kill Russians.
          It is Russia that has invaded and slaughtered its neighbours especially Ukraine for centuries.
          No Russian troops, just “little green men”.
          It is the dwarf Putin who is sending the sons of Mother Russia to be cannon fodder on Ukrainian soil.
          Get out of Ukraine and sort out your own mess.

          • Realist
            October 16, 2017 at 6:03 am

            Are you for real? Just who is it, if not Ukrainians sent by Kiev, to kill the ethnic Russians in the Donbass?

            It was your own anarchists who pushed the reset button by violently overthrowing the Yanukovych government in the Maidan coup. They refused to recognise him as the legitimately-elected president. Turnabout is fair play, the people of the Donbass refuse to recognise Poroshenko, your chosen puppet of Washington. The Crimea, Odessa and Kharkov also declined such recognition. You got your goons to subjugate the people in Odessa and Kharkov with some right-sector violence. You didn’t dare attack Crimea, because the Russians were already there by treaty and the local population voted to re-unite with Russia. You did attack the Donbass, but your regular army draftees did not have the training or the motivation to beat down the locals. Truth be told, many other regions in Ukraine would probably secede from Kiev if given the chance.

            I should get out of Ukraine and sort out my own mess? Since I am an American, I wholeheartedly agree with that. Washington should never have gotten into Ukraine. It should never have fomented the coup. And, right now, it should get the hell out.

      • Adrian Engler
        October 15, 2017 at 10:53 am

        The Ukrainian army and fascist militias like the Azov battalion are the ones who kill people in Donbass on a regular basis.

        • Taras Tchaikovsky
          October 15, 2017 at 11:12 pm

          Only those who deserve it.
          Payback for all the death and misery Russia has inflicted on Ukraine.
          Better a fascist than a Russian imperialist.

      • Zachary Smith
        October 15, 2017 at 12:20 pm

        …Russia destroyed…

        I think our new troll for Ukraine is a genuine Nazi himself. (Or maybe herself.)

        • Taras Tchaikovsky
          October 15, 2017 at 11:29 pm

          It is Russian troll. Come up with something original.
          Russians have been stealing Ukrainian culture, language and land and now you want to steal the word coined to identify Russian paid propagandists.
          Russians are identity and history thieves, they think that they are Slavs and brothers to Ukraine but they are only poor imitations..
          This fascist/Nazi routine is becoming passe.
          You seem to forget that Russia colluded with Hitler to invade Poland to start WWII so who are the real Nazis?

      • frizzy gee
        October 15, 2017 at 11:02 pm

        UkrainianSavior – you are just betraying your lack of understanding of war – you remember Chernobyl & the fallout? How will Ukraine be saved if it is to be the centre of a nuclear war?
        Perhaps you need to give up posting & change your reading material.

    • Realist
      October 15, 2017 at 5:14 am

      Until our would-be “saviour” distracted me, I came on-line to share David Stockman’s recent article which underscores in spades what you say about Russia not being a threat to Europe, not to the United States, not to anyone because they simply do not have the resources and have been cutting back severely on military spending. All the blather put forth about Russia (and about Iran, China and North Korea) by Trump, the neocons and trolls on this board like our “saviour” are totally bogus, just delusional fabrications from whole cloth. Just some excerpts and then I’ll cite the URL in an attachment.

      “Russia today is a shadow of what Ronald Reagan called the Evil Empire. Its GDP of $1.3 trillion is smaller than that of the New York metro area ($1.6 trillion) and only 7 percent of total US GDP.

      Moreover, unlike the militarized Soviet economy which devoted upwards of 40 percent of output to defense, the current Russian defense budget of $60 billion is just 4.5 percent of its vastly shrunken GDP.

      So how in the world did the national security apparatus convince the Donald that we need the $700 billion defense program for FY 2018—-12X bigger than Russia’s—- that he just signed into law?

      For crying out loud. Why is Russia considered a threat to the American homeland when it doesn’t even have a blue water navy or any other basis to project offensive power to the North American continent?

      Indeed, its “attack” fleet consists of a single, 40-year old smoke-belching aircraft carrier that could never get out of the Mediterranean bathtub ringed by overwhelming US forces.

      Beyond conventional offensive power there is the non-power of its 1500 or so deployable nuclear warheads. Whatever you may think of Vlad Putin’s kleptomania and hard-edged suppression of internal dissent, he is surely the “Cool Hand Luke” of the modern world. Do you think he would be rash or suicidal enough to threaten the US with nuclear weapons?

      Or for that matter that Russia with its pipsqueak $1.3 trillion GDP and limited military capacity actually intends to invade and occupy Europe, which has a GDP of $17 trillion and sufficient military force—even without the US—-to make such a project unthinkable.

      Likewise, so what if the Chinese want to waste money building sand castles (i.e. man-made islands with military uses)in the South China Sea. It’s their backyard—just as the Gulf of Mexico is ours.”

      • Realist
        October 15, 2017 at 5:16 am
      • backwardsevolution
        October 15, 2017 at 8:04 am

        Realist – “For crying out loud. Why is Russia considered a threat to the American homeland when it doesn’t even have a blue water navy or any other basis to project offensive power to the North American continent?”

        The wheels of a neocon mind work this way: get them while they’re weak and vulnerable. No better time. Surround them, cut them off, sanction them to death, and by all means don’t give them time to build up strength (economically or militarily).

        Probably why Putin is encouraging his citizens to rejoin the church and to begin growing their own crops. They’re being cut off; they don’t get to play.

        Strong countries don’t bend to you or give up their resources for ten cents on the dollar.

        • Sam F
          October 15, 2017 at 8:57 am

          True, although the US is the exception, giving up its resources to Israel for no net gain at all, in fact an extreme loss, gaining only bribes to politicians that it pays for several times over in unwarranted “aid grants.” US competitors should exploit this extreme vulnerability, buying up US mass media and establishing PACs to influence our corrupt politicians. Foreign states need only pretend like Israel that they are advancing the rights of, for example, Russian or Chinese Americans. A new form of “dollar diplomacy” for which we can thank the Repubs and Dems, for convincing us that dollars rather than humans have rights and votes. What would democracy ™ be without deals?

          • backwardsevolution
            October 15, 2017 at 5:10 pm

            Sam F – true. I just meant that in order for the West to buy up Russia on the cheap, they need to break it first, bring it to its knees.

            Yeah, there’s something very fishy going on with this Israel/U.S. love affair. In fact, the whole Zionist thing has stunk since the 1800’s, the tsar of Russia taken out, the Balfour Declaration, their influence in the First and Second World War, their collaboration with Hitler. It just stinks! Never mind the wholesale ownership of U.S. media, telecommunications, academia, judiciary, Hollywood (at least Weinstein is being brought down), the House and Senate.

            What the heck? Lots of money, lots of blackmail. Look how President Wilson was blackmailed by them having the letters he wrote to some old flame, how Louis Brandeis got his foot in the door and then became the door.

            And revisionists who even question, even in the slightest way, the Holocaust, well, they are just thrown in jail for even doubting or questioning the numbers. This is freedom?

            They say that you should look at who you CANNOT criticize to see who controls you. Well…..

            What do you think, Sam? What is going on?

          • Sam F
            October 15, 2017 at 8:17 pm

            Certainly there has been gradual dominance of US mass media by zionists, now to the point of complete control, both direct and indirect. And certainly zionists dominate Congress by campaign bribery with very few exceptions, and dominate the judiciary.

            My concern recently is that zionists may also dominate the secret agencies, the perfect cover for subversion of democracy. The fake Iraq WMD scam was entirely arranged by known zionists at CIA, DIA, and NSA, and US Mideast policy has obviously long served only zionists and has seriously injured the US, all advanced primarily by US secret agencies. The US Ukraine policy has served only zionists seeking to weaken Russia elsewhere (the Mideast), and was advanced largely by US secret agencies. So zionists in secret agencies are a serious problem.

            There have been hints that US secret wars in Latin America, conducted by US secret agencies, have also served zionists, but I still have little information on this. It also seems very likely that US secret agencies were involved in giving nuclear weapons to Israel.

            The US monitoring of alternative news media and personal communications, all done by US secret agencies, appears to be intended to silence opposition and exposure of government and party corruption. Already the zionist controlled mass media do such censoring, apparently with the support of US secret agencies. Certainly oligarchy controls US secret agencies, now a short and invisible step from full totalitarianism. So I would like to know the extent of zionist control of secret agencies.

          • backwardsevolution
            October 15, 2017 at 9:32 pm

            Sam F. – good comments. By “secret agencies”, are you referring to NGO’s, think tanks, foundations, anonymous contractors who hire the mercenaries? People other than the NSA, CIA, DIA (who they also control)?

            I forgot about the Federal Reserve (which they also own) who, after the 2008 financial crisis, swooped in and provided massive liquidity to the 1% elite, who then used this money to further buy out their competitors, buy back their own stocks, all leading to further domination, power and monopoly in, for instance, the telecommunications industry. With virtually no competition, it’s a simple process to start shutting down anybody who doesn’t agree with them. And the government is letting them get away with it!

            I just think that the world is spiraling down and, because of this, these guys had to come out from behind the woodwork and start circling the wagon. This made them more visible, allowing us to see their hand, at least a little.

            I think we will continue to see more Vegas-type tragedies, that is until they’re able to get people’s guns. Then, as happened in South Africa (everybody turned in their guns), they will have complete control.

      • Al Pinto
        October 15, 2017 at 10:19 am

        I partially disagree with the your sentence of:

        “For crying out loud. Why is Russia considered a threat to the American homeland when it doesn’t even have a blue water navy or any other basis to project offensive power to the North American continent?”

        I don’t believe that Russia would start a nuclear war, rather, it maintains/advances its capabilities for nuclear weaponry as a deterrent for the US. You are correct that Russia isn’t a threat to the US, or EU for that matter. But that does not mean it could not reach the ” North American continent”.

        h**p://rense.com/general69/tiddosdzdd27makes.htm
        h**p://russia-insider.com/en/can-russia-destroy-us-missile-defenses-europe/ri14460
        h**ps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand_(nuclear_war)

        h**p – link modified to prevent auto-connection to the site

        • Realist
          October 16, 2017 at 6:24 am

          Those aren’t my words, all those sentences are quoted from an article by David Stockman (as I mentioned in my intro). We all know that Russia has nuclear tipped missiles that can land anywhere on earth. The point Stockman was making is that Russia does not have a mechanism to “project power,” that is to deliver an invasionary force onto the American homeland (or anywhere else very far from Russia itself), whereas the United States does have this blue-water navy with a dozen huge nuclear aircraft carriers that allow us to take a land war to virtually any country on the planet. There is no way Russia could mass an expeditionary force like we did twice off Iraq’s doorstep, to say nothing of Vietnam or Korea, therefore no way for Russia to ever occupy a distant land as we have done several times. They are what is characterised as a “regional” power. They can only project power so far from their own borders. China has the same limitation. Resorting to nuclear annihilation is not a winning strategy for anyone. You can’t really use nukes and survive. Now read the rest and understand why they are so limited. Just look at the disparity of wealth and resources. Even when they were the Soviet Union they could not occupy Afghanistan (right on their border) for very long, not vs the US-armed Mujahideen. When it got down to cases, they knew they could not even hold the Warsaw Block against a full rebellion, which is why they conceded, collapsed and dissolved as a polity.

  11. Lisa
    October 14, 2017 at 6:47 pm

    Those of you who have watched the Putin Interviews by Oliver Stone, maybe you noticed a short sequence towards the end of the third part of the series, where Putin explained, showing on a map, that Russia is transferring the Sevastopol fleet to the port town of Novorossiisk on the Black Sea. This is a rather large port in Russia, to the east of Crimea. I almost jumped at this piece of news – what perspectives does it open?

    1) Suppose that this means the possibility of closing the Sevastopol Naval base. Crimea would not be so essential for Russia, for access to the Black Sea with their Navy.
    2) The Crimea would not be as attractive to Nato as the Russian fleet would be gone, Sevastopol port would maybe serve only passenger and cruise ships, and private luxury yachts of the oligarchs.

    As for McCain’s constant war-mongering, remember how he visited Georgia (former USSR) as part of his presidential campaign in 2008. Is there any evidence or documents about the promises he gave to the Georgian government, military support he obviously promised to Georgian government if they attack Russia? The same is being repeated in Ukraine. At least he is true to his ideals to the end.

    • UkrainianSavior
      October 15, 2017 at 1:10 am

      It means that Krym will be easier to reobtain. Good for us.

      McCain wasn’t able to fulfill his promises probably because he wasn’t elected president. You know nothing.

      • Lisa
        October 15, 2017 at 8:06 am

        Dear UkrainianSavior,

        Sorry to say, you are doing more harm than good to your beloved Ukraine (if you are a Ukrainian at all in reality) with your low-grade, abusive language towards this news site and the commentators. I do not think you should be expelled from the site, even if you do not confirm to the generally accepted high standards among the commentators.

        As for Crimea, Mr Putin seems to be a very pragmatic politician and always has a plan “B”. He does not need to be defending the Sevastopol base against Nato at all costs, if there is an alternative. As things are, Ukraine would probably not want a rebellious region annexed into its territories. They have enough trouble without it.
        Study again the referendums in Crimea in 1991 and 1994. In the last one, a great majority (over 80%) voted, among other questions, for the acceptance of dual citizenship for the Crimeans (Ukrainian/Russian).

        McCain – so you agree that he did promise military support for Georgia against Russia? He was a senator and could have used his influence even if not elected as president.

        That you are attacking almost every commentator of the above article makes one wonder how much you gain (financially) from your verbal violence. A true Ukrainian patriot would never sink as low as this.

    • Louis Joseph
      October 15, 2017 at 5:03 am

      @Lisa, the decision for the construction of a new facility within Novorossiysk bay for the Black Sea Fleet was taken in early 2000’s
      The construction started slowly but was almost completed in 2014. Submarines are now based at Novorossiysk, Sevastopol will still be used.
      Here some pictures during the construction and the existing facility at the time:
      https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/26082
      And in 2015:
      http://uchvatovsb.livejournal.com/363125.html

      • Lisa
        October 15, 2017 at 5:35 pm

        Thank you, Louis Joseph, for the background information, which I wasn’t aware of.

  12. mark
    October 14, 2017 at 7:39 pm

    What happened to Ukraine as a result of western meddling since 1990 is truly tragic.
    At the time of independence, Ukraine was the most prosperous part of the Soviet Union.
    Coal Steel Metals Engineering Motor Vehicles Shipbuilding Chemicals Machine Building Aircraft Armaments Rocket Engines Agricultural Machinery.
    All the helicopter engines for the Soviet Union were produced in Ukraine.
    Machine Building – 100 large factories that were major employers, producing 370,000 machines, machine tools like heavy steel presses.
    The population of Ukraine (52 million) was very well educated, skilled, professional. Engineers, technicians, scientists.

    Like Russia, Ukraine was looted by a handful of spivs and oligarchs acting in partnership with western banksters. But whereas Putin eventually put a stop to this looting, in Ukraine it never stopped. Everything that wasn’t nailed down was stolen by the oligarchs. Everything that WAS nailed down was likewise stolen by them. The result was mass unemployment, poverty, destitution, drugs, alcohol, social breakdown.

    By 2012, electricity production had fallen by 35%, steel production by 57%, tractor production by 95%. The highly skilled trained workforce was a thing of the past. Engineers and technicians tried to scratch a living as market traders or got a plot of land and grew potatoes. Of the 100 factories producing 370,000 machines, just 3 were left, on the verge of bankruptcy, producing just 40 machines a year.

    The decline in population was most marked. Down from 52 million to 38 million, with another 7.5 million working abroad, picking cabbages in Poland, or working as prostitutes in the EU – the only thing Ukraine produces the EU wants.

    By 2012, PCI/ Income per head, was $2,700 a year (compared to Egypt, $3,000 and Syria, $2,400.)

    Of course, this was before the Coup and the war in the east. The economy has since fallen off a cliff. The currency is worthless. Most of the population is living in abject poverty. Ukraine has since lost a further 8 million of its population in the Crimea, the Donbass and the refugees who have fled to Russia. So the Kiev Regime controls about 30 million people now, compared to 52 million at independence.

    The only future Ukraine has is as a pool of cheap immigrant labour and prostitutes for the EU. Maybe some foreign owned agribusiness (Monsanto?) and foreign owned extractive industries (Joe Biden’s son?) and maybe, if they are lucky, some low level sweatshop style manufacturing for the EU.

    • UkrainianSavior
      October 15, 2017 at 1:19 am

      Holy fuck, you’re a retard. Literally everything you said is wrong.

      Ukraine was NOT prosperous after the collapse of the Soviet Union; the fallen institutions paved the way for a MASSIVE crime wave that continued throughout the 1990’s, and it didn’t help matters that there were secessionist movements occurring almost immediately in Zakarpattia and Krym. Thankfully, Kravchuk put an immediate stop to them, and they rightfully fled to Russia.

      Unfortunately, the Russians were still allowed in, and stole all Ukraine had over the years yet again. Putler didn’t stop this in Russia, he continued it ever further.

      However, things were turning around when Yushchenko became president; the map to the EU and NATO was drawn, Ukraine’s GDP rose, and it was steadily becoming a major power player in the world.

      Everything fell off by 2012? Gee, I wonder who could be responsible for that; so much for your precious “legitimate” corrupt Russian stooge Yanukobytch.

      There are no Ukrainian prostitutes in the EU, only the Russians are contribution to prostitution, and no amount of idiocy on yours or the Kremlin’s part will make this any less true.

      Our economy has been improving since the war. West Ukraine is doing fine as far as poverty goes, it’s East Ukraine that is suffering.

      Wrong again; the only future Ukraine has is becoming a world superpower, producing the highest quality goods on Earth. The only future Russia has is becoming the world’s largest, radiated parking lot.

      • Realist
        October 15, 2017 at 4:34 am

        You got one thing right: that Ukraine was inhabited by criminals. It still is.

        Funny that you think Ukraine was being plundered by Russia when, in fact, Russia was being plundered by the West during those years after the Soviet Union broke up. Maybe it was the guys from the CIA and Wall Street who were fomenting all those color revolutions that were actually “plundering” Ukraine. Them and your oligarchs like Porky.

        • Joe Tedesky
          October 15, 2017 at 11:41 am

          Don’t forget Realist, Wall Streets favorite Russian puppet Yeltsin who didn’t do any Ukrainian nor Russian of anything good. History proves the turn around for Russia, was when Putin entered the scene. Joe

      • John A
        October 15, 2017 at 4:44 am

        Ukraine becoming a world superpower? You are beyond deluded. Say for one second, Ukraine even hinted at the slightest prospect of becoming a world power, let alone a world superpower, the good ol’ US would be straight in with another colour revolution and new ‘Maidan’ to cut you off at the knees, just like they are trying to do with Russia and China, and suppressing any EU ambitions by having military bases all round Europe to suppress any insurrection of its vassal states!

  13. October 14, 2017 at 8:46 pm

    Hilarious Russian propaganda and lies, not only the article but all the replies. For almost 5 years you Russian trolls and you useful Western idiots have been pushing the Ukrainians are Nazis lie and it has gotten you ZERO. Public opinion in the West is still firmly pro Ukrainian and after Putin’s lies about the little green men etc. nobody believes anything that comes out of a Russian mouth. The failed strategy all you Russians and fellow travelers have been pursuing is quite simple but it hasn’t worked. Someone convinced you all that Jews run the West, especially the western press, and all you had to do was “Scare the Jews”, a variation of the Republican strategy of “Scare the White People”. You thought that if you relentlessly painted Ukrainians as Nazis you would get Western Jews scared enough to turn against Ukraine. And once you got the Jews to turn against Ukraine they would do the rest because Jews own the press in the West. But it hasn’t worked. Everyone sees Putin for what he is and Russia has lost all respect and credibility in the West because of the ridiculous bald faced lies Russians have tried to peddle. From the clumsy “video proof” that Ukraine shot down MH 17, to the lies about Ukrainian soldiers crucifying infants, to the Putin lies about little green men not being Russian troops and the lies that there are no Russians in Donetsk, people here in the West know EXACTLY what Russia brings. Death and misery. All of Eastern Europe has joined NATO because they are scared to death of more Russian oppression and domination. Ukrainians have longed for freedom since the mid 1800s when Taras Shevchenko protested the Tsar’s oppressive ukazes (edicts such as those banning the Ukrainian language and many others. You Russian trolls and troll buddies are wasting your time.

    • Joe Tedesky
      October 14, 2017 at 9:55 pm

      Alex I guess you being a guy who has so much to say, that you started this conversation out on a very blunt critique of this sites comment posters and their opinions, but you failed to take into consideration who the fine authors are who’s essays appear on this site. I’ll allow you to do your own creditably check on the authors, but consortiumnews news is a site that prints the news the way the news events really do go down. Compare the quality of reporting on this site, and how the articles here at consortiumnews always stand up to the test of time, unlike the NYT or Wapo.

      My first impression of the Ukraine coup personnel was pretty convincing to my believing them to be Nazi influenced, and that impression was because by my seeing pictures of the Azov Battalion in full regalia proudly displaying their Nazi inspired Wolfsangel emblem. So by my seeing those Nazi symbols worn by the Azov thugs, well what was I suppose to think? I thought these emblems spoke well of these Western Ukrainians being at least somewhat sympathetic to Himmler & his Aryan Führer Hitler, but now you tell me how I was utterly wrong, and then accuse me of being a Putin troll. Does rude bluntness work for you Alex, because it never did for me! Now Alex if you are going to come out here, and defend these people who are not Nazi’s then do yourself a favor, and tell the western Ukraine goons to stop wearing Nazi uniforms. Seriously Alex, your job of defending these killers (Odessa – explain that) would be a lot easier if your guys didn’t dress up to look like a bunch of angry Nazi stormtroopers.

      Also while your at it, please give in detail how Russia benefited from the tragic downing of Flight MH17. We all know, because we don’t buy into the MSM narratives of things like we are talking about, but if you get out your Ukraine map and go back to July 11-17 2014 you will see that your Nazi guys, who aren’t really Nazi, had their BUK Missile launching equipment units right smack dab in the very place said deadly missile was said to have been launched from. Also since you seem to be a mountain of information when it comes to all things Ukraine, then tell me where that Air Traffic control person Carlos the Spaniard went…I miss Carlos tweets.

      I also need to go to my mailbox to see if my check from my Supreme Comrade and Chief Vlad came delivered for all of my Russian trolling I have done. You know I’m just joking, but I’m not joking if I invite you to have a discussion, and I appeal to you to talk with us, and not at us. Condescending attitudes never pull people into a conversation, but by the height of your true brilliance I can see you don’t belong here amongst all of us Russian trolls, so pulling people into debate your interests would be for you a valuable waste of time…especially when their is still, so much trolling to be done.

      Happy trolling Alex. Joe

      • UkrainianSavior
        October 15, 2017 at 1:40 am

        Oh look, another brain-dead idiot who takes things at face value.

        Chances are pretty good you saw these faked images on the fake news site known as RT, and never questioned them beyond that as a pathetic attempt to make yourself feel smarter compared to all those “dum libruls in murrika”. Hell, the symbol of the Azov Battalion isn’t even a Nazi one, and doesn’t represent them in any way whatsoever; only complete fucking idiots like you, who know NOTHING about Cyrillic languages, believe otherwise.

        They benefit from it by having an event they can scapegoat on Ukraine; this is the country that committed and denied Holodomor, a few hundred lives is nothing to them. It’s been confirmed repeatedly, even by DUTCH (Normally pro-Russian) investigators that the Buk was brought in from RUSSIA, not Ukraine, and then returned to Russia. But please pull some idiotic bullshit about how a poorer, invaded country bribed one that opposes it rather than the richer invader out your ass; it’ll make you look even stupider. What you saw was definitely fake Russian news, as was this Carlos individual whom you never even knew about until you heard he died.

        I’m sure you do need to do so; it’s all you’re evidently good for. The fact that you believe such worthless, completely fake lies conjured up by the Kremlin proves that you are unwilling to have an actual discussion, don’t seek one, and are incapable of having one. If they don’t, then why do you have one after claiming you want to have a discussion? Typical Russian-sucking idiot: Can’t form a coherent thought or keep his story straight.

        Kill yourself.

        -UkrainianSavior

        • Realist
          October 15, 2017 at 4:53 am

          Why is the Russian version of events not accepted in America? Because it is absolutely blocked, not presented to the American public whatsoever by the American media. The Soviets would have been proud if they had as effectively controlled their media as Washington does here today. Moreover, Washington is so afraid of the truth that they want nothing more than to shut down, completely censor, the very few independent media sites left functioning on the internet. That’s what you have been led to think is the most “free” and “democratic” country on earth–it is a hypocritical fraud. You get more truth from Putin in a single interview than Trump, Obama or Clinton ever delivered in a year. But you’re their willing tool and already know that.

        • Anna
          October 15, 2017 at 10:44 pm

          You are not a Ukrainian savior – you are the ziocons’ dream-of-a-warrior: http://theduran.com/neo-nazis-stage-hateful-torch-lit-march-msm-says-nothing/

      • John A
        October 15, 2017 at 4:52 am

        Joe, I have been in Kiev on occasions since the Maiden events. There is a threatening military presence with army vehicles and uniformed soldiers prancing around, many waving collection buckets demanding money for the ‘troops’. There are Nazi and Azov flags and memorabilia worn and waved, nazi and Bandera graffiti on walls. A very ugly atmosphere. Most of the people keep their heads down for fear of being beaten by these thugs. R Parry has posted photographs on this site of flags and memorabilia that I can confirm are genuine. Dont know where these “UkraineSavior’ or Alex characters are posting from, but if they do live in Kiev, Liev or similar parts of Ukraine, they must walk around with a white stick or seeing eye dog unable to tell them what people are wearing!

        • Realist
          October 15, 2017 at 5:38 am

          Unless our “saviour” is a dedicated sociopathic internet troll practicing his art, he may, in fact, be one of the flag wavers or shakedown thugs you encountered in your journeys to Kiev.

        • Joe Tedesky
          October 15, 2017 at 10:03 am

          I also have a link to what’s happening on the ground in Kiev, and that link concurs with yours. Thanks John A. Joe

      • GMC
        October 16, 2017 at 2:05 pm

        Thanks Ted – Ukraine has been propagandized 24-7 since the Kyiv coup and that Russia is the reason for all things bad in Ukraine today. These folks just north of me are so programmed now that they have no sense of reality anymore.The same that happens on main stream media in the states is 10Xs worse here because of the economic despair, utility rates rising 3 fold, food prices raising and pensions not. Monsanto/Bayer, Cargill, DuPont, John Deere, Big Pharma, and the CIA, FBI, State Dept, IMF,and Israel are all running the show in Ukraine. Crimea is prospering with Russia spending billions on the old never maintained infrastructure, new schools, renovations, and rules that kicked out the Ukraine mafia. The bridge and new transrail over Azov straight is visible from both sides and the new Highway at Kerch is going to be direct to the capital of Crimea. Let the AmeriKraine posters talk all they want – they are the Losers who will help bring Ukraine down even more !

    • UkrainianSavior
      October 15, 2017 at 1:21 am

      You are a hero to the Ukrainian people, Alex. We will prevail, rest assured.

      • Joe Tedesky
        October 15, 2017 at 10:14 am

        Sadly when you cross the finish line, you UkrainianSavior and Alex will find that your NeoZionist masters had fled with the gold and treasures, and your NeoZionist puppet leaders will all stand in the box at their tribunals for their war crimes. I would suggest you two don’t get into the weapons, drugs, or sex trafficking, because those crimes will surely get you hanged. Your hanging won’t be nearly as spectacular as your leaders who will get front page hede lines, because you are not worth that kind of notoriety. Sorry guys that you two get thrown into the paupers grave, but sometimes purchasing in bulk is the only way to go…your burial will be cheap, because the NeoZionist need that money for better things, like paying for plane flights of gold taken from your country’s treasury. Although if your thugs end this violence you have brought down upon the good people of Donbass, well then maybe one day you’ll be healthy enough to book a boat tour around the Crimea.

    • Anna
      October 15, 2017 at 10:17 am

      Is this Mr. Groysman? (Groysman is the first Jewish Premior of Ukraine; he represents 0.02 % of Ukrainian Jews).
      Or your diatribe comes directly from the Israeli-Ukrainian-Swiss citizen Kolomojsky, who not only used to finance the neo-Nazi Azov but who was, most likely, implicated in the downing the MH 17?
      By the way, if you like the old times so much, please return the Soviets-acquired lands of Ukraine to Romania, Hungary, and Poland. Have a nice day.

  14. Tannenhouser
    October 14, 2017 at 10:15 pm

    Joe. I was at work last week. There was a young woman of Ukrainian heritage on the same shift. As the shift progressed at one point I asked her if she had any thoughts about what was happening. She tried to convince me that the Russians were eating Ukrainian babies in the Donetsk regions, and that Crimea was taken by force. My point is that the agitprop flows both ways. I tend to agree with most here….. yet how come in all the Putin did it nonsense going on, Russia has yet to call out AIPAC or isreal for their actual influence? Why do you think this is?

    • Joe Tedesky
      October 15, 2017 at 12:23 am

      It is way to impossibly hard for me to explain a Putin strategy, if what you mentioned had been born, or better put neglected to be done by Russia’s accused Russian leader. The answer that girl gave you Tannerhouser, where she decries the Russians for their baby consumption, sounds like more made up stuff done by the Anti-Russian Machine (Atlantic Council for example), and possibly inherited by your woman friend’s East European lineage. I tend to step away from what sounds like to much extreme partisanship.

      While we haven’t heard of to much Putin firing back against his annoying enemies, we have two things to take into consideration; one, how very often do our American ears get to hear in Putin’s oratory tone his words, or ever get to read all of what the man comments on a daily basis? Is censorship by the U.S. Shadow Government in place to block out Putin’s good words? How often does the Shadow Government go and twist his well intended words, so Putin gets quoted out of context? The second thing is, is how hard it is to get to listen or get to read every Putin speech? Also take the edited coverage, and think last to when you got informed by the corporate media, and where the media reported to you every word Putin had said in his speech in it’s entirety? What us Americans do get is reported quotes, and it’s usually reported where Putin made a warning….you know like before Putin goes towards the beginning, middle, or end, of one his speeches and he reaches out to his American ‘friend’, do we ever get to hear those positive words of Putin reported? You bet we don’t, we only get edited out of context quotes reported about this very patient world leader.

      There’s always more ways and one to skin a cat, and our corporate owned media knows how to skin cats, that’s for sure. So to answer your question, of why hasn’t Putin called out Israel & Saudi Arabia, I will answer you with this Tannerhouser, ‘are you certain Putin didn’t’?

      If this is written poorly, or things are spelled bad, I’m a bit tired and drowsy so forgive me Tannerhouser. Joe

      • UkrainianSavior
        October 15, 2017 at 1:54 am

        Meaning what? Ukrainians are inherently hateful? Just more bullshit spewing out of a pro-Russian asshole named “Joe Tedesky”.

        You avoid extreme partisanship, yet suck off the Russians like a $3 whore. Family business, right?

        You don’t understand Putler’s strategies, yet attempt to report on them anyway, and assume you know more than the experts.
        “Putler did it to weaken the country that he’s been trying to control since 2000 after they stood up to him and his influence? No, there must be some other reason that I simply cannot comprehend because my intellectual inferiority to my more left-wing countrymen causes me to turn a war criminal into a monolith to protect my ego and fool myself into thinking I’m smarter than I really am.” Idiot.

        You then try to turn Putler’s speeches into Schrodinger’s Cat, claim that all of his speeches are edited out, yet provide absolutely no evidence for it, or the slightest proof that you even attempted to find out the truth behind this particular matter, all the while being incapable of even considering the possibility that the Russian media (A.k.a. him) edits his speeches as well to hide the truth and attempt to and fail to make Russian shit not stink (Which is a provable, indisputable fact).

        Typical, hypocritical Russian idiot. Do the world a favor and share the same Polonium cocktail that killed the great Litvinenko (Oh boy, I wonder who killed him and why).

        • Realist
          October 15, 2017 at 4:44 am

          You sure prove yourself to be inherently hateful, plus stupid, close-minded and entirely uninformed. Not only the authors of the articles on this site but the readers give you facts plus reasoned analysis which you flush down the toilet accompanied by a torrent of insults and foul language. I’m sure you are quite a brutal thug in person–and proud of it. Perhaps you are even one of Porky’s paid murderers killing Russians in the Donbass.

          • Joe Tedesky
            October 15, 2017 at 9:56 am

            Realist, I like what you have to say to our new friend, but I think his appearance here, is prompted by my doctor to be a stealth stress test, and a blood pressure read, for the benefit to fill up my private medical records to satisfy my medical health insurer.

            I feel sorry in away for our new friend UkrainianSavior, because mark my words the day will come when one fine morning his Washington benefactors will turn on him, and his crew. It won’t be pretty, and it won’t seem fair, but none the less this is NeoZionist 1.0 in their NeoZionist playbook. Noriega, Gaddafi, and Hussein, are but just a few to reference for this kind of portrayal. Yes, UkrainianSavior will live to regret his over activity supporting this gang of thugs, but UkrainianSavior his being human is worth at least one tear. That tear to shed isn’t that his revolution was successful, but rather that UkrainianSavior picked his being on the right side of right. Joe

          • Joe Tedesky
            October 15, 2017 at 10:22 am

            Boy I’m really screwing up these comments. That should have read….

            “UkraineSavior picked his being on the wrong side of right.”

      • Tannenhouser
        October 15, 2017 at 12:52 pm

        Joe, I have yet to see any media saying Putin has called them out, this is extremely strange too me. I am not sure he hasn’t though. No need to apologize Joe. Take care

        Ukeraniansaviour, I didn’t think it was possible yet here we are you are a bigger fuctard than mike k, you guys must read the same books as Trump:)

        • Rob Roy
          October 15, 2017 at 8:12 pm

          Tannenhouser and Joe,
          Putin doesn’t “call” out anyone. He never criticizes other world leaders nor the government officials or other countries. It’s his policy. He is a mature and reasoned person. If you listen/watch the four hours of the Putin Interviews, you glean a composite portrait of a person who is intelligent and cool headed and very knowledgeable about world history, and any number of other topics. He had no reason to interfere in the US elections because, as he said, America’s foreign policy never changes, no matter who is in office. However intentioned they come into office, US presidents will always carry on the hegemonic foreign policy its had since WWII. Those who will not walk the line (Jill Stein, Dennis Kucinich, Rocky Anderson) will not get elected, especially since the League of Women Voters gave up the presidential debates, saying when six rich corporations told them what they had to do, “That would be a fraud on the American citizens.” So no contender who will not continue the hegemony will never make center stage. Period. Trump got into line fairly quickly. Was hoping he wouldn’t. Oh, yes, American-Russian journalist Masha Gessen recently tried to liken Putin to Trump. Unbelievable. She couldn’t even name one tiny trait they have in common. For one thing, Trump cares for no one more than himself. He has zero sympathy/empathy for another person on earth, i.e., all Americans and this country mean nothing to him, except he wants their applause. He is very stupid. Putin loves Russia and the Russian people with a passion and holds his citizens in highest regard. He is very smart. Gessen’s take was ridiculous.

    • UkrainianSavior
      October 15, 2017 at 1:43 am

      It wouldn’t be the first time they ate Ukrainian babies; just look up Holodomor. This will probably your first time doing so.

      It was taken by force, idiot: An entire sleuth of soldiers came in and took it after driving the local Ukrainian forces out.

      Putler did all of this, and the only nonsense around here is the bullshit that comes out of your mouth; this is all indisputable fact.

      • Joe Tedesky
        October 15, 2017 at 9:44 am

        The problem I have with my acceptance of the true story about the Holodomor is which version to believe. So I generally don’t have an opinion out of respect for those who suffered and died under its term.

        You my friend are trolling in the wrong place. If I were able to convince you that your allegiance to the Ukraine imposter government will be, or is, temporary, because once the NeoZionist dual citizens of the U.S. are done with you, then your asses will be blowing in the wind. You will be among the lucky ones if your own ass is feeling the cool breeze, because the rest of your class will be martyred to be honored at a later date, due to their betrayal by the same NeoZionist your leaders rallied behind to funnel your inherited hate against your cousins the Russians.

        So my friend, make all of the nastiest fowl mouthed comments you can, but sign off your comments in a gentlemanly way so as not to burn down any bridges, because eventually you will come crawling back to us here, apologizing for your ignore ways, as you will concede to how right we all here had been.

      • Anna
        October 15, 2017 at 10:22 am

        Holodomor had happened almost hundred years ago. The policies were initiated by Stalin (Georgian) and implemented by Kaganovitch (Jew) and Molotov (Russian) with the eager help of the local Ukrainian communists.
        Hopefully, you are not a representative of the decent Ukrainian people but just a russophobic thug brainwashed by the Kagans and dishonorable McCain.

    • Adrian Engler
      October 15, 2017 at 11:03 am

      “yet how come in all the Putin did it nonsense going on, Russia has yet to call out AIPAC or isreal for their actual influence?”

      Israel actually stayed neutral in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine and was criticized for this by the US. I think it does not make sense to blame Israel, at all. Israel was in quite a difficult situation because a significant part of its citizens are from the former Soviet Union, and Israel has close relations with Jewish people who still live in Russia and Ukraine, and there is a very broad range of opinions among them about this conflict. Therefore, it probably made sense for Israel to stay neutral despite US pressure.

      I also doubt AIPAC has been very active in that area, that is hardly their domain. What is certainly true that US neocons, many of whom are Jewish, have close relations to US-Israeli lobby organizations and use (misuse?) Israel for their aggressive foreign policy agenda have extremely anti-Russian positions. But US neocons should not be conflated with Israel. Israel has normal relations with Russia, and in contrast to the US and the EU, it has not introduced any anti-Russian sanctions.

  15. UkrainianSavior
    October 15, 2017 at 12:48 am

    Who gives a shit about the other parties? What matters is Ukraine’s national security, the country joining NATO, and getting its invaders out.

    There have been absolutely no human rights’ abuses committed by the Ukrainian government, that is all Russian propaganda aimed at weakening Ukraine and justifying its invasion, when there is absolutely no justification for it.

    Moscow is slashing its budget by 25%? Yeah, right; as if they’ve never lied before. If anything, they think Ukraine is on the tipping point of collapse after they destroyed Vinnytsia’s weapon depot; hardly a peaceful negotiation tactic.

    Ukrainians are being killed left and right, soldiers and innocent people being bombed to smithereens, having their arms ripped off for sporting the Ukrainian flag, little kids being beaten and having their teeth cut out by DNR swine before being shot to death because they had the Tryzub on their backpack, and suddenly Ukraine is in the wrong and guilty of war crimes and human rights violations? No. Not even close.

    Let me make this clear, since there are far too many idiots completely delusional and unaware of the situation: Help Ukraine, get in NATO and the EU as soon as possible, protect its borders, rebuild it, or ELSE you will get World War 3, and I assure you: You will not survive.

    • Anna
      October 15, 2017 at 10:28 am

      Ukraine in NATO? – Dream on.
      Again, what the CIA Director Brennan had been doing in Kieve on the eve of the beginning of the ongoing civil war initiated by the Kiev regime of Yats and chocolate king? You claim that Jews are scared of Ukraine, but what about Mrs. Nuland-Kagan’s fateful visit to Majdan to deliver cookies? And please keep in mind that you live under Groysman now. Still cannot understand where Ukraine has arrived? Kolomojsky is your king. Pravyj Sector thugs are your ideological pride.

    • Joe Tedesky
      October 15, 2017 at 11:51 am

      UkrainianSavior I feel for the many Ukrainians you say you support, because what you are advocating for, is to make your homeland Ukraine a frontline battlefield. This is why your country is so attractive to the U.S. and it’s vassal NATO. There is such a thing as a ceasefire, and then onto the detente, but with such tough guys as you Ukraine will never have a day of peace. I would also suggest you read a few Putin speeches, then return to me with an apology. BTW I won’t be losing sleep waiting for your ‘I’m sorry Joe’.

  16. Annie
    October 15, 2017 at 2:51 am

    I would like to ask Mr. Parry, why someone like the UkranianSavior can come on this site and attack almost everyone here, in a way that it totally unacceptable. I understand differences of opinion, and even strong rhetoric, but his responses are abusive. I don’t contribute to this site to be abused by anyone.

    • John A
      October 15, 2017 at 4:56 am

      Annie, the more that idiot posts, the more idiotic he proves himself to be. Hoisted by his own petard, to be sure.

    • Realist
      October 15, 2017 at 5:00 am

      Don’t worry, Annie, the fool is only digging his own rhetorical grave with his absurd remarks. He loses all credibility not only on the basis of content but also his insulting demeanor. Besides, seeing him in action gives you a good idea of what rational civilised peaceful people need to beware of. He makes you realise the threat of barbarism is real.

    • Joe Tedesky
      October 15, 2017 at 11:57 am

      Annie our visiting Nazi loving troll with his vocabulary of insults, speaks for himself for being an abusive tool to push the lies he was instructed to push on us. I kind of welcome him, because it sharpens our talking points when approached by someone as rude as he. Although your right, I can’t get behind any kind of censorship. Joe

    • Al Pinto
      October 16, 2017 at 7:08 am

      While I tend to agree with Joe’s comment of “I can’t get behind any kind of censorship”, I second your question Annie…

      There is no reason for allowing comments that are laced with profanity and insulting nearly everyone. Without moderating the comments, this site will loose valuable contributors and on the long run, readers.

      On the other hand….

      Contributors are part of the problem. There’s no reason to respond to trolls, especially when the trolls “rhetoric/dogma” is quite obvious. In lack of Consortium News moderation, maybe contributors should stop responding to trolls, they tend to go away in that case for good…

  17. Emily Tock
    October 15, 2017 at 3:10 am

    I love the smell of rotten deperation in the morning. It probably shouldn’nt be fed, though.

  18. Derry Serborne
    October 15, 2017 at 4:51 am

    looks like its again Russian propaganda confusing US citizens

    • Anna
      October 15, 2017 at 10:31 am

      You mean, the amazing posts of UkrainianSavior deserve our trust? We have heard already about CNN’ and NYT’ and WP’ complains about “fake news” on “pro-Russian” sites. Is this your point?

  19. mike k
    October 15, 2017 at 8:21 am

    Don’t feed the trolls – it just makes them hungry for more. After you have answered their baseless BS, just move on and ignore them. They self-destruct from lack of attention. Let’s save our energy for real discussion and concerns.

  20. Myles Hagar
    October 15, 2017 at 8:35 am

    I want to learn about what the people in Crimea think. Where are all the refugees fleeing Crimea?

    • Taras Tchaikovsky
      October 17, 2017 at 6:21 pm

      Most have been locked up while others have fled to Ukraine.

  21. October 15, 2017 at 9:29 am

    If that’s all the “savior” of Ukraine has to do but post a continuous stream of venom anonymously on this website, perhaps that person doesn’t have enough to do in life. Readers of CN are not going to be convinced.

    Whatever “liberals” might have been in the past, they are not anymore. Banging drums in support of war on this planet will not get us anywhere other than closer to extinction. And it’s not Putin and Russia pushing war, it’s the failing US empire and its supporters.

    • mike k
      October 15, 2017 at 10:10 am

      YES. Beware of falling Empires……..TIMBER!!!!!

    • Taras Tchaikovsky
      October 17, 2017 at 6:30 pm

      Say what you will but Russia invaded Ukraine and has stolen Ukrainian territory.
      The war in eastern Ukraine is as a direct result of a Russian invasion.
      It is possible that savior and/or his/her family have suffered from Russian aggression that is nothing new.

  22. Skip Scott
    October 15, 2017 at 9:31 am

    Wow. This comment thread kind of reminds me of a WWE smackdown. UkrainianSavior to the rescue! And his sidekick Alex! Where is Michael Kenny? It has been an education. Don’t worry Annie, the hatred these guys are spewing says more about them than anything else. Robert Parry does a pretty good job of keeping the trolls at bay, and allowing for thoughtful exchanges. Unless they change their tune and start coming up with thoughtful, rational arguments, their vitriol spewing days are probably numbered at CN. Think I’ll go take a shower now. “Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.” – Buddha

    • Joe Tedesky
      October 15, 2017 at 2:01 pm

      Skip I’m hoping that one of these days a ‘reformed troll’ visits this site, and tells the truth to what Shadow Government trolling is really all about. I’m hoping there are some reformed trolls out there to do this function, that is unless they all got jobs at Lockheed, or Raytheon. Who the hell knows, Skip. Joe

  23. October 15, 2017 at 9:37 am

    Wow, that’s a great comment from the Buddha, Skip!

    • mike k
      October 15, 2017 at 10:08 am

      Score one for the Buddha! Actually, he had some very good advice for getting out of the jam we find ourselves in.

  24. Miroslav
    October 15, 2017 at 1:01 pm

    This article is just as rediculous rt or sputnik has made. Nobody in the EU, US or anywhere in the modern, educated world believes in this. Its quite simple. Russia is again isolated and that makes me happy as you can never trust a Russian. To bad Novalny is imprisoned otherwise you may find him winning the upcoming Russian election. keep up the shoddy reporting no one believes you.

  25. Zachary Smith
    October 15, 2017 at 1:51 pm

    An odd thought just occurred to me about the new troll(s). He/She/They seem to be more interested in insulting the other people here than anything else. So I’m going with a theory that the Israel propagandists who have taken quite a beating here of late are doing some payback under the guise of being pretend-Ukraine patriot(s).

    :D

  26. jaycee
    October 15, 2017 at 4:09 pm

    Linked within the body of this article is a chapter from a report commissioned by the EU and published in February 2015. ( https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldselect/ldeucom/115/11508.htm). It attempts to provide an objective perspective on events in Ukraine from the summer of 2013 onward, and is in context fascinating in its (unintended) description of blinkered compartmentalized thinking and policy leading almost inevitably to a serious geopolitical crisis. in turn, the committee’s analysis lacks focus in describing crucial moments of the crisis, not at all helpful to the EU bureaucrats who would use this paper to establish policy.

    For example, discussion of the Association Agreement which led to the crisis does not resolve competing narratives: EU trade policy bureaucrats claim that Russia offered no opinion as the agreement was negotiated (“it did not make a major issue”), while the Russians claim that inquiries led to indifference or blunt claims that it was not their business. Russian reaction in the summer of 2013, after the fine print of the agreement was published, is described as “coercive economic diplomacy” or a series of “different wars”. But downplayed is the fact that the agreement itself was a form of “coercive economic diplomacy” in that it would completely reorient Ukraine’s economy towards Europe and cut off, almost overnight, extensive longstanding ties to Russia. Or that a major feature was a comprehensive austerity program directed at Ukraine’s citizenry. The Maidan demonstrations which arose after the Ukraine government expressed second thoughts over the AA are also presented as a competing narrative: as led by “neo-Nazi and other extremist groupings” (Russia), or protestors seeking European association and values (EU). (It is noted that the European Endowment for Democracy supported “civil society, blogs, newsletters and radio broadcasting, as well as rapid emergency relief of people injured in the demonstrations.”)

    Acknowledging that a “deal was brokered by the foreign ministers of Poland, Germany and France, President Yanukovych and some of the representatives of the protestors”, the paper then suggests that “the deal was rejected by the protestors in Maidan Square” which led Putin to “interpret as instigated by western states.” No mention that it was actually the “extremist groupings” in Maidan who rejected the deal, not the demonstrators in general, and such rejection was expressed through a violent attack on the Ukraine parliament and its sitting politicians followed by an immediate declaration of legitimacy of a new unconstitutional coup regime by the United States and Britain. This is referred only as “the trope of a western-tormented plot” which unreasonably informed Russian political thinking.

    In discussing Crimea, EU bureaucrats claim that “the annexation of Crimea had not been foreseen” and that “no one saw this coming”. But NATO had commissioned an analysis in 2004 which predicted exactly similar moves should Ukraine seek NATO status, and high level Russian officials confirmed such a possibility in 2009. An EU official claims that everyone understood that Crimea “was of strategic importance, but there was no proper discussion about it.” Should there not have been discussion since the Association Agreement was so comprehensive, and key pro-European Ukrainian political leaders campaigned for NATO membership?

    The report concedes that critical errors were made, that the “absence of (EU) Member States’ political oversight during this process is glaring”, but the EU went ahead with a sanction program directed at Russia’s economy, a military build up of NATO forces in the Baltic region, as well as a public position of blaming an aggressive Russia for all the problems.

    This does not install confidence that current political leadership or institutions can be relied on to intelligently handle the range of potential crisis foreseeable in the near future.

    • Sam F
      October 15, 2017 at 8:57 pm

      Thank you. It is surprising that the AA process appears to have sidelined the issue of trade with Russia and set up a mechanism to interfere with it, which would have damaged the Ukraine economy, and especially that of the eastern provinces and Crimea, causing destabilization. Perhaps the EU was itself anti-Russian, and set up the agreement to penalize Russia and eastern Ukraine, deliberately aggravating the problem.

      It would be good to know the history of Ukraine attempts to work out non-exclusive trade agreements with EU and Russia, and whether the EU abused border states by giving them only the exclusive trade option.

    • Abe
      October 18, 2017 at 12:25 am

      Thanks for the reference material, jaycee.

      EU bureaucrats cannot function with anything other than blinkered compartmentalized thinking.

      Par example: check out the latest hot Euro-lovebird/jailbird couple. (I’m hearing “election” bells ringing)

      http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/former-georgian-president-mikheil-saakashvili-and-former-news-photo/845186524#former-georgian-president-mik

  27. Hank
    October 15, 2017 at 8:48 pm

    ““Your fight is our fight … 2017 will be the year of offense. All of us will go back to Washington and we will push the case against Russia.”” Yet not one in a million Americans could tell you this fact. The Propaganda continues to be spewed…Bad Russia, Bad China , Bad Iran…Bad Venezuela …Bad North Korea….Bad Syria …BAD Ecuador….Bad Turkey….etc. etc…

    • Abe
      October 18, 2017 at 12:31 am

      The Israel Lobby’s original first couple, Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham, always want to arm “moderate opposition” forces like Al Qaeda, ISIS, and the neo-Nazi national guard of Ukraine.

      The Propaganda continues to be spewed…Good Israel…GOOD Israel…

  28. October 16, 2017 at 11:18 am

    It is a tragedy for the Ukrainian people that their elected/puppet President is beholden for his life to the pro-Nazi battalions leading the charge for the Ukrainian army. Peace for this poor and corrupt, but neutral Ukraine. is a hell of a lot more preferable (to not only the Ukrainian population but to the rest of the world) than a Ukraine which is poor and corrupt, but also in a another civil war killing its own people. Shame on US for sponsoring another genocide in that long suffering country in the name of democracy and free speech. These key words ring rather hollow as American firms are now busy lining up contracts to help swing the NATO decision westward, while busy at the same time lining their own pockets. Is this the US I grew up in and want to pass on to the next generation?

  29. Taras Tchaikovsky
    October 16, 2017 at 7:57 pm

    It is Russian troll. Come up with something original.
    Russians have been stealing Ukrainian culture, language and land and now you want to steal the word coined to identify Russian paid propagandists.
    Russians are identity and history thieves, they think that they are Slavs and brothers to Ukraine but they are only poor imitations..
    This fascist/Nazi routine is becoming passe.
    You seem to forget that Russia colluded with Hitler to invade Poland to start WWII so who are the real Nazis?

  30. October 16, 2017 at 10:43 pm

    It may be just a couple of numbskulls in State and a few more indigenous ones (Stoltenberg, Rasmussen, etc.) at the European end but collectively these appalling people promote war. Every dead soldier reflects society’s collective disgrace in Ukraine. Thank you NATO.

  31. Den Lille Abe
    October 16, 2017 at 11:00 pm

    As an European, I would have a very short answer to Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko : F. off. The rabble that is the Ukrainian government is as far from democracy as you could possibly get and hopefully its aspirations to both NATO and the EU have been quelled indefinitely. The Polish and Hungarian scenes show that democracy and what it stands for does not bloom overnight. Democracy in former East European countries is micron thin and easily dissolved. Hopefully the EU can strongarm them back on the right path.
    Let me just be clear on this: The EU has its faults, but with globalisation running amok, the EU has been the lone bulwark against Neo-cons, Neo-libs and general corporate reign, the EU has kept the worst excesses at bay. The US and to some extent Britain are examples of the contrary.
    The Ukranian question will not be solved, before Kiev rids itself of the oligachs and recognizes it minority of Russians as equal citizens with an autonomous self rule. Catalonia, Scotland, Walloon are regions in more or less turmoil (just or unjust), if the Ukranian government was forced to the negotiation table, the war would be over, and the US would have wasted a lot of money.

  32. Zachary Smith
    October 21, 2017 at 2:06 am

    Putin: “Russia will not allow Donbass to be massacred”

    According to Putin, Ukraine must grant the Donbass republics a special status and adopt an amnesty law in order to resolve the conflict in East Ukraine. If this is not done, he argued, then any seizure of the border between Russia and the unrecognized republics would lead only to a tragedy comparable to the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Herzegovina. “There would be a massacre. But we will not allow this,” Putin said.

    My early guess seems to have been correct. Ukraine (and NATO) are really playing with fire on this issue.

    h**ps://forum.russians-in-london.co.uk/printthread.php?tid=19724

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