A bipartisan bill in Congress seeks to criminalize boycotts of Israel with fines and imprisonment, as the so-called BDS movement passes its twelfth birthday, notes Lawrence Davidson.
By Lawrence Davidson
As of this July, the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement against Israeli racism and apartheid is 12 years old. This means that over the last dozen years, a worldwide grassroots movement has grown up – a movement of civil society – that has organized active opposition to Zionist racism and Israeli oppression.
A section of the barrier — erected by Israeli officials to prevent the passage of Palestinians — with graffiti using President John F. Kennedy’s famous quote when facing the Berlin Wall, “Ich bin ein Berliner.” (Photo credit: Marc Venezia)
While the vast majority of governments have either ignored or assisted Israel’s violations of international law and the basic principles of human rights, millions of “civilians” have refused to follow their leaders on this issue.
The BDS movement is now far ranging. It presses for divestment from companies that support or do business with Israel, particularly those that operate in the Occupied Territories. It urges the boycott of all Israeli products, from foodstuffs to cosmetics. It protests the appearance of Israeli cultural organizations outside of Israel. It urges the boycott of Israeli academic institutions that lend support to the state (an effort that, in 2015, Israeli president Reuven Rivlin called a “strategic threat of the first order”). And, it discourages tourist and artist visits to Israel, particularly by well-known celebrities. For more information about specific BDS achievements over the last 12 years, go to website of the US Campaign for Palestinian Rights.
In all these efforts the movement has proved increasingly successful. Some surveys have suggested that as many as one-third of Americans and 80 percent of Canadians support BDS. The movement is also strong in Western Europe and growing in Australia and Latin America. Thus, no one should sell this ongoing campaign short. Certainly, the Israeli government does not.
Israel’s Ministry of Strategic Affairs and Public Diplomacy devotes a lot of time and money to “push back” against the BDS movement. Israel’s attempt to counter this growing popularity is grounded on a simplistic, libelous campaign that seeks to identify the BDS movement as a new form of anti-Semitism.
At least among the general population, there are two things that make this a very hard sell: (1) a lot of BDS supporters are Jewish, underlining the fact that the Zionist state and Judaism are not the same thing, and (2) the State of Israel continues to reinforce the BDS characterization of it as a racist state by public acts of discrimination against Palestinians.
As more people come to support BDS, fewer people support Israel. A survey released in mid-June by an organization known as The Brand Israel Group, “a coalition of volunteer advertising and marketing specialists” who consult for pro-Israel organizations, indicated that “approval of Israel among American college students dropped 27% between the group’s 2010 and 2016 surveys” while “Israel’s approval among all Americans dropped 14 points.” Brand Israel’s conclusion: “the future of America no longer believe that Israel shares their values.” This is the case not because of any big increase in anti-Semitism, but due to ever-growing evidence of Israeli racism.
Political Roadblocks
Unfortunately, Israel’s inability to keep a favorable public image does not necessarily mean its near-term defeat. Here in the U.S. there are two reasons for this: (1) as obnoxious as Israeli behavior is, and also as obscenely massive the U.S. aid package that helps to sustain that behavior, neither the behavior nor the aid package is yet a prime voting issue for most American citizens, and (2) due to the resulting lack of political pressure from the voters, American Zionists still have a clear field to use money and other forms of patronage to pressure both the U.S. Congress and the political parties to ignore the blatant racism and continue to strongly support the Zionist state.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu addresses the the U.N. General Assembly on Sept. 22, 2016. (UN Photo)
That support can extend to becoming Israel’s ally in the effort to defame and then try to destroy BDS. The argument that BDS is a modern form of anti-Semitism has become the backbone of an effort to make it illegal. As noted above, the BDS movement is not anti-Semitic. It is anti-Zionist, which in fact makes it anti-racist.
There is plenty of evidence that the Zionists do indeed practice racism in Israel and its Occupied Territories, and therefore, in truth, the Zionist charge against BDS creates a paradox. It requires you to accept that a supporter of BDS can simultaneously be anti-Semitic and anti-racist. Alas, in the absence of voter pressure, this absurdity does not matter to most U.S. politicians. Nor does the fact that outlawing BDS constitutes an obvious violation of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
BDS, Human Rights and Jewish Morality
On a wider field, two things are simultaneously at stake: the future viability of human rights and the moral status of the Jewish people.
First, consider the threat to human rights as an international principle. The Zionists seem to believe that what weakens the viability of human rights is that one country – Israel – is being “picked on” for misbehaving, while other countries, allegedly doing the same things or worse, are not similarly censured. Despite the fact that there happens to be good reasons for “picking on Israel,” this Zionist complaint is an exaggeration used to deflect legitimate criticism. It also misses the point.
A Threat to Human Rights
The threat to human rights does not come from individuals overly blaming one country for what others also do. It comes from people – in the form of governments, lobbyists, and a sadly misled element of the Jewish community – actually championing Israel (or any other racist country for that matter) while it pursues overtly discriminatory policies based on, in this case, religion. This precedent, persisting over decades, must end up deadening the ability of governments, as well as the United Nations, to take human rights seriously and develop mechanisms for their promotion and protection.
The same situation that threatens the integrity of human rights standards threatens the moral character of the Jewish people. In a recent article entitled “Israel’s Irrational Rationality,” David Shulman, professor emeritus at Hebrew University, confesses that it is Israeli government policy to maintain “a steady level of state terror directed against a large civilian population [Palestinians] … . All of it stains the character of the state and has, in my experience, horrific effects on the minds and hearts of young soldiers who have to carry out the orders they are given.”
However, Shulman knows it does not stop there. He observes that what we have here is an “ongoing moral failure of the country as a whole.”
Yet who constitutes “the country as a whole”? The ideology of Zionism demands an identification of Israel with the Jewish people – all of whom are virtual Israeli citizens whether they want to be or not. This means that the Zionists insist that the Jewish people as a whole be identified with Israel’s practices and policies – including the disregard for human rights and implementation of “ongoing state terror.”
Despite this Zionist contention that Israel and the Jews are equivalent, we know that this cannot be literally true. Israel’s sins cannot be the sins of the Jewish people as a whole. At the beginning of this essay I indicated that increasing number of Jews are actively supporting Palestinian rights and thus opposing both Israel’s undermining of the principle of human rights and its erosive effect on the moral status of the Jewish people.
However, the logic of the situation does make one thing literally true, and that is that the Zionist ideology, as it has evolved in practice, is a dangerous enemy of Jewish morality. As long as Zionism stands against human rights while at the same time insisting that Israel stands in for the Jews, it must be the enemy.
Ignorance of this logic is also an enemy. Therefore, it is time to heed the call of Rebecca Vilkomerson, head of Jewish Voice for Peace: “Seventy years into the ongoing dispossession and displacement of Palestinians, fifty years into Israel’s military occupation, and ten years into the siege of Gaza, we think it is time for American Jewish communities [and those in the rest of the world as well] to have some really uncomfortable conversations.”
Lawrence Davidson is a history professor at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. He is the author of Foreign Policy Inc.: Privatizing America’s National Interest; America’s Palestine: Popular and Official Perceptions from Balfour to Israeli Statehood; and Islamic Fundamentalism. He blogs at www.tothepointanalyses.com.
This morning I found a link to a story titled “Terrorism: How the Israeli State Was Won” which was an eye-opener for me. Reading it demonstrated the thoroughness of the cover-up of Israel’s misdeeds over the years. I’d like to draw attention to a particular photograph with this caption:
An Israeli soldier clears out of the way as a specially-built IDF vehicle begins to douse Bethlehem in “skunk spray”, chemical warfare intended to make life miserable for the civilian population.
When it isn't directly murdering Palestinians, the low-life Israel Defense Force amuses itself by directing a high-pressure "skunk spray" into residences and businesses. Swine. I'd like to see the neocon NYT and Bezos Blog Washington Post try to justify this. But of course they never will.
Just imagine the horror of God’s Favorite People being degraded to the level of a “native”.
h**p://www.globalresearch.ca/terrorism-how-the-israeli-state-was-won/5602231
We seem to have the stupidest politicians in the world in the US of A Congress. BDS is not antiseptic, not racist, but it is against the genocide, racist policy of State policy of Israel, against Arabs of Palestine. Anybody not used blinders can see the cruelty, the atrocities of the State Of Israel, anybody not turning a blind eye, should see the reality of the truth, not the lies and politics of the two most de-stabilizing States in the Middle East, those of Israel and the United States, otherwise known as USREAL. This fact not anti-Semitism.
In the US you have two major groups that, for reasons left unsaid, oh well money, and that is primarilyy the hold that Israel has over our elected officials.
A democratic party of neoliberalist that has a vrry large Jewish influence within it, and especially within all its media and entertaient area.
Yet the power exerted thtough those Democratic party bodies pales compared to the estimated 80 million Christian Zionist Dominionist grouping, a group bereft of reality and surviving upon children sunday school indoctrination.
They do not seperate Israel and its’ political and apartheid social programs as being anything other than their Common destiny.
Their capital is not DC, with its’dens of iniquity, but Jerusalem proper.
A very militaristic support group gor all US military activities, God is on their side.
That US grouping is a tax free jundreds of billions yearly industry, and just through their tourism gives Israel tens of millions yearly.
They also contribute millions more to aid newer jewish immigrants from US.
Their groupings are Homeland Decurity girdt responders and eyes ftom the pulpit se
I suggest ConsortiumNews start running exposes on the Rothschild family, so we can begin to decipher what is myth and what is reality.
War is peace. Love is hate. Up is down. And now considering Palestinians to be fellow human beings and supporting their basic rights to life will soon become essentially a “hate crime” in this beacon of democracy we call the U.S. of A. If you added up the sum of all the individual IQ’s in both houses of Congress, and divided by the number of Congresspeople you couldn’t hit triple digits if your life depended on it!
Never have so many ignorant, greedy, amoral and violent human beings been assembled in one place for the purpose of controlling and stamping out whatever shreds of decency might still remain in the population at large. It is high time “we the people” sent a clear messing to the oligarchy and collectively shut this nation down with a non-violent general strike. Europeans have the courage to do this, why don’t we? What exactly are we waiting for? The next presidential election where we’ll yet again get to choose between the “lessor of two evils??!!” We will collectively overcome our differences and mobilize, or we will simply be crushed by this ever growing apparatus of illegal repression and violence we call our “government.”
pick an issue – say maybe, no more tax dollars going to buy weapons Israel uses to oppress and murder Palestinians and to fund Israelis’ healthcare while usamericans go wanting
now pick a day – say November 5th? – give enough time for the word to get around
the action is everyone begins that day to wear a specified color, say, gray – gray pants gray shirt gray jacket – suits or sweats or scrubs, everyone wears gray – and they wear it everyday until the demand is met to halt all aid to Israel until the oppression and the occupation end in full
doable, peaceful, visible to everyone, easy on the people – betting most of us have the gray clothes already – and with numbers large enough participating, how can the media ignore what’s going on?
justathought
duct tape is gray, too – sticks to schoolbooks, shoes, …hmm
love your eagerness to act, Gary – my respects to you! Maybe easier to get people to overcome their effing inertia if we start smaller than a general strike?
just in case it wasn’t clear – the point is to make it crystal clear to legislators that millions are mobilized
the British left India because Ghandi showed them visible proof he could mobilize millions, right?
Perhaps this explains it all !!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KMVhb57RqI
I have never been a religious person…. because….. I consider religion in general to be the greatest con game that exists to date. However, lately I have entertained the idea that some how Yahweh/Allah did have a hand in filling the earth with their vicious creation (in our image we created them male and female). Love is a joke….Now having said all that bullshit, exactly who by name are these serial killing policy makers in both the USA and the asshole of the world Israel…..They will be without a doubt the dual citizens of Israel who have weaseled their way into the USA political system. Right now they are in the process of expelling the “evil Russians” from the USA as they harvest vital organs from Palestinian children fresh from the killing fields……..Lazy asses !
In Canada, an EKOS poll recently found how wildly out of sync members of Parliament were from their constituents on the matter of BDS against Israel. A huge majority of those polled across the country believed that Boycotting Israel was a good way and a properly non-violent way to get Israel to behave better with respect to Palestinians.
Here is the link to the 40 pages of the complete polling report :
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/cjpme/pages/2537/attachments/original/1488423127/EKOS_Poll_Results_Report_R2_-_2017-03-02-Final-v1.pdf?1488423127
The last few pages of this report give a list of the UN resolutions over many years where Canada has slavishly voted against the obvious feelings of their compatriots alone among the other major countries of the world, with the USA, effectively the client state of Israel. It is my considered opinion that the vast majority of Americans also oppose the policies of Israel. They would wish their representatives to stop supporting that country. It beggars belief that so few very wrong headed people in a very small state (Israel) that acts criminally on its national and international scene for so long; and that it can control the behaviour of virtually all of the elected officials of a super-state, in defiance of the wishes, beliefs and feelings of its hundreds of millions of citizens. Someone should get on this, because it corrupts the United States deeply and completely. Boycotting the state of Israel is probably well under way in America as it is in Canada. The movement is just under the radar and quiet. This is because the Israelis still have tough wealthy people who enforce what they wish, on those who would stick up their heads and lead a popular movement against their state. There is much to be done.
A very clear post. I agree completely.
I am sure your average Israeli cant control or sort through their politicians, oligarchs and con artists, anymore than we can.
Boy, turk151 you said a mouth full. I sure as hell don’t want to be blamed for what our jagoff politicians do. So, I would only hope there are Israeli’s and Jewish people everywhere, who detest what is being done in their name. I know they are out there, but they are as suppressed as we are, from ever being heard. Our country’s media does an excellent job of avoiding many things, and our discontent is one of those noises they are hell bent to silence.
Norman Finkelstein is an example of a Jewish man who speaks out strongly against Israel. His example is inspiring. There are many others. My Jewish friends hold no brief for Israel and it’s crimes.
I finally found the truth-laid-bare article I spoke of before:
http://isreview.org/issue/76/political-islam-marxist-analysis
long and detailed – and an absolutely-must-read imo – I’m betting the farm you will be very glad you invested the time to read the whole thing, friends
seriously, a game-changer if only USamericans knew – a real eye-opener
E. Leete, I started reading your link, and at this moment I can’t finish it, but I’m anxious to finish reading it a little later when I’m in a better place. The little I did read though, made me think of how we of the European persuasion did what we are now doing to the Middle East Muslim, back when we robbed the Native American of their land upon stepping foot on this continent some 525 years ago. In fact, we Americans have a pretty bad reputation when it comes to how we treat minorities, or people of color as opposed to white. Why, do we continue to do this, is the question? I mean, we call ourselves civilized, but tell me how is killing innocent indigenous populations civilized? It’s not, and we who rally to this cause should know better. Thanks for the link. Joe
Joe – this has been going on for centuries: the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Mongol Empire, the Timurid Empire, the Persian Empire, the Spanish Empire, the British Empire. Now we have the American Empire.
It’s either over spreading religious ideology or stealing resources. In the name of “empire”, millions have been destroyed.
The corruption of religion began long ago in it’s conversion into a tool of the capitalist deception. See Max Weber, R.H. Tawney, etc.
Well, Joe – hope you do get to finish that important history all others are ignoring – – as to why – your question above – witness the lethal, murderous power of ubiquitous belief in the ludicrous mythology called the rightness and inevitability of social hierarchy
Bravo E. Leete! You have pointed out the deadly poison in the apple of cultural propaganda, that we all so unthinkingly consume: social hierarchy – the belief that one person is greater or more important than an other. The antidote? The realization that at a deep level we all have the same infinite value, no more no less. This is the foundation of humility, the one totally effective medicine against the disease of hubris.
And israel has always been arming Ethiopia to wage war on Eritrea and Sudan
The war against Islam has been there pet project all along so the world would be more tolerant of their crimes…think of the power they pretty much control all univetsities, all media, deep state shallow state hollywood etc etc.if people neef to wake up and demand stop to this foul play.
Israel supplied serbs with weapons and training to destroy bosnia which was a poster child of a muslim country speeches in the heart of euroope. Blood diamond in congo well the key players are israeli…the rise of bjp in india…and also the bloodshed of the rohinga muslims in burma. Wherever bibi goes blood follows and i have not en mentioned the middle east…..
Is this what happens when a special interest group “jumps the shark”, becoming so arrogant and confident of its power that they jeopardizes their control and status? I am no historian but was this what happened in 1930’s Germany with the Jewish global boycott of German goods?
Chet Roman – yes, this is exactly what the Jews did to Germany in the 1930’s. This was a very well-organized boycott by rich Jews. Even then they were controlling events with money.
Why should israel be shielded. It knows damn well that treating Palestinians the way it does is morally wrong and despicable. Hiding behind the Holocaust is as low as it can get. And all those chiming into israel’s claim to have the right to ‘defend itself’ are just as pathetic. Palestinians too have the right to defend themselves and we, who support Palestinians, must not cave in to having our voices silenced.
The power of the oligarchs behind Zionism cannot be underestimated. They include some of the wealthiest people on the planet, including the Rothschild clan and their banking cartel. Many normal citizens know nothing about the money and power behind Zionism. But those who seek to criminalize a movement like BDS certainly do.
Israel must resist appearing to be mimicking that which was done to them by Nazi Germany. Apartheid is insidious and if left unchecked can only serve the goals of hate and the superior over the inferior, the very tenet of the Final Solution.
Let’s not forget the concept of “dual citizenship” which serves no other purpose than to allow foreign encroachment into American politics and culture.
At the present time, there are forty or so congress critters who hold dual citizenship with Israel. In addition, there are thousands of influential “policy wonks” Infesting (infecting) our United States government with their allegiance towards Israel.
Dual citizenship must be strictly prohibited. All those within government who hold such status should be required to divest themselves of their “dual citizenship” pending mandatory deportation. In any case, NONE of them can be trusted to work in any capacity within the U S government, its agencies and contractors.
Israel is a cancer that must be excised…
anarchyst-
I agree with your comment, but it seems to me to be contrary to your moniker. Shouldn’t you call yourself nationalyst?
Read this….
https://www.sott.net/article/358094-Head-of-American-Jewish-Committee-is-Israels-Foreign-Minister-claims-Netanyahu-minister
This says a lot about dual loyalty.
1. why is it germany and the german peoples are still held to collective guilt regarding wwii, but israel as a country and all of its people are not morally culpable as the german’s ? ?? (for EEE-VIL being done RIGHT NOW, not 60 years ago ! ! !)
um, it couldn’t be because of double standards, or sumpin’, could it ? ? ?
(for that matter, shouldn’t ALL of the amerikan peoples be held collectively morally culpable for Empire’s reign of destruction ? ? ?)
.
2. for me, the comparison of how jews were treated by germans during wwii is DIRECTLY comparable to how the jews are treating palestinians, regardless of shrill zionist squeals to the contrary… mind boggling that jews don’t/won’t see that horrific analogy, i guess proving the abused often becomes the abuser; the sickness perpetuated by the original victims…
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3. as an aside, remember the USS Liberty; israel is NOT our ‘friend’, they are our extortioners…
Yes! “how often the abused becomes the abuser.” Exactly. You nailed it.
Very true. Israel is the primary source of bribes to US politicians, laundering US “aid” money back via AIPAC to get more “aid” and to rent the US military for pennies on the dollar to disrupt the Mideast and create permanent enemies and security problems for the US.
They do this by controlling the US mass media and elections, as many have verified, using US “aid” money.
Zionism is fascism in promoting the interests of its group over those of all other groups, and using the stolen proceeds of aggression to reward its followers. It is tragedy or comedy that the bullied have become the bullies, but there is no excuse.
“Unfortunately, Israel’s inability to keep a favorable public image does not necessarily mean its near-term defeat. Here in the U.S. there are two reasons for this: (1) as obnoxious as Israeli behavior is, and also as obscenely massive the U.S. aid package that helps to sustain that behavior, neither the behavior nor the aid package is yet a prime voting issue for most American citizens, and (2) due to the resulting lack of political pressure from the voters, American Zionists still have a clear field to use money and other forms of patronage to pressure both the U.S. Congress and the political parties to ignore the blatant racism and continue to strongly support the Zionist state.”
I would add a third reason, Zionist control of the MSM. An article such as this one will never see the light of day in any MSM publication or be covered by any TV channel. The vast majority of US citizens have no real exposure to the horrible treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government and the IDF. They only hear one side of the story.
Boy Skip, how right you are. I can just hear the gasping, and gnashing of teeth, if such a story as what Lawrence Davidson just presented right here, were to pop up in the MSM. Whoever would be the author, or presenter, of such a anti-Israel Zionist story were to be, they would be expelled the minute they ended their reporting. In fact, maybe they would not return to finish reporting, after a commercial break. Then the ex-host or author, would be talked about for days in a bad light, and whoever this poor soul reporter would be, they would more than likely need to personally apologize to Netanyahu on bent knee. Think of it, in America our media actually has a procedure for this misconduct, or what they call misconduct. Yeah free speech, that’s what we call it.
Israel is powerful for sure. What other country can make the U.S. government demand that people stop resisting a brutal and oppressive state?
https://therulingclassobserver.com/the-ruling-class-preservation-society-rcps/
THANK YOU Zachary and Backwards Evolution for posting the full list of Democrats who voted for this abominable BDS travesty on justice and common sense. I hope everyone who is reading the comments section will use it to tell their Senators what they think.
ranney – you’re welcome.
Real saudies … The Bedouin population keep to themselves…most of Saudi population is foreign..can look into that too…oncecagain the ones in power are there for a reason…they have been preapproved by the CIA and Israel..but I was trying to remind you that Hollywood, state dept, academia,businesses banks all controlled by Israel Firster’s in america. The police chiefs, emerging politicians, etc..all have to Make that mandatory trip to Israel to get brainwashed. Tell me how good is this for america?
tang fan – I think Israel is one of the worst, if not the worst, country on the planet. I know that most of the world leaders are just American/Israeli puppets. I know that if these world leaders don’t go along, they are just murdered (in the Middle East, Latin America). The coups, the overthrowing of legitimate governments is endless. The new guy in Saudi Arabia I’m sure was given his job with the blessing of the American elite. I’ve read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, Shock Doctrine, etc. It’s despicable what’s happened and is still happening. Israel should be cut off from America’s purse strings and told to get along with their neighbors and give the land back that they stole. That would be a good start. Then they could come to the table with some humility and start negotiating.
I was livid when Gaddafi was murdered. It makes my blood boil when I think of what they are doing to Syria. We here at this site talk all day long about these atrocities and we’re all angry about it. Some of us were hopeful that Trump could put a stop to these wars. I’m still hopeful. It is what he campaigned on and I think would have done if the elite would have let him. Even the President of the United States is being turned into a pretzel trying to go up against these warmongers. Look at what happened to John F. Kennedy – they assassinated him!
The U.S. has been taken over by a gang of thugs, thieves and killers and most of the American people aren’t even aware of it. That how good the propaganda has been. I don’t know where it’s going to end. The only hope is for Trump to fire the top half of every government department, get rid of the warmongers. But he’s too busy fighting off impeachment. What a sorry state of affairs.
Cheers.
tang fan, thank you, for that perspective, we don’t often get that here in America and it broadens our perspective to hear it. You will find many interesting people who are willing to engage on a philosophical level. Thanks for your comments and please keep visiting this valuable site…
tang fan, few people in America are familiar with CIA ops on your Continent, we (the reading, concerned people) are most interested in learning more about our government’s interference abroad so keep visiting and contribute where you see something incorrect. President Kennedy wanted to reign in the CIA, and he was right…
If you saw pictures of Afghanistan back when they were under soviet orbit you would think you were in a European town. Women wearing mini skirts and going to med school. This country has been brutalized over and over again by toxic american policy. Read arundhoti Roy on the subject. Fundamentalism was a CIA project meant to win the cold war. Since then this country went downhill. Tell me a foreign wealthy government were to supply american fascists with guns and weakens and spur them on to terrorize the population…generations later you will have total descent into lawlessness. That does not give you the right to interrogate an american muslim with stupid question. If this is the level of your intelligence about the muslim world no wonder you are drinking thevkool aid
tang fan – I think I started out saying “you can certainly understand Arab anger”. You have every right to be angry. The West has destroyed the Arab countries. But that anger is all the more reason that the West needs to be very careful about who enters their country. It isn’t the 15 year-old American or European girl who caused all of the problems, and yet she is the one who ends up being brutally gang-raped. By the way, I didn’t hear any compassion from you for them.
“That does not give you the right to interrogate an american muslim with stupid question.” I didn’t say an “American Muslim”. I was referring to Muslim refugees and migrants who want to come to America. Yes, the West most definitely does have a right to ask pointed questions like these:
Do you believe that a woman is less than a man?
Do you believe in female genital mutilation?
Do you believe your religion takes precedence over allegiance to the country?
If the answer is “yes” to any of the above questions, they should not be allowed into the country. There are millions upon millions of migrants/refugees. Countries should at least bring in people who are compatible with their values. It just makes it so much easier.
I believe the woman who wrote the excellent National Interest article above. She was horrified at what was going on. If I was running the country, the planes would be lined up and they’d be going back home. If it continues, Europe will be destroyed too. What is the good of that? Just to destroy more countries, level the playing field? Aren’t there enough destroyed already?
I have plenty of relatives who are Muslim, as far as I can tell, their female genitalia seems to be humming along just fine but, I agree about your concerns regarding the first question.
On your 3d question about religion, you should take your next vacation to the deep south and ask them that question. In fact, I am sure many people throughout our world feel that their spirituality is more important than their country. It is not my viewpoint, but that I dont find that unusual at all.
How about asking, Do you believe in the right to murder dozens of innocent women and children for the sake of a few more cents in profits for the shareholders?
It is you and yours that are responsible for the deaths (and rape [remember My Lai]) of millions.
Lesley Stahl, speaking of US sanctions against Iraq: “We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And – and you know, is the price worth it?”
Madeleine Albright: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price – we think the price is worth it.”
Don’t even think about spouting American moralistic hypocrisy.
PJ London – you must be new here. I have been one of the most vocal proponents for stopping all wars. I’m probably the one who held out the most hope that Trump would stop the wars, stop the killing. For you to compare me with Madeleine Albright is just stupid.
You are both quite right, if we set aside the misunderstandings. Islam deserves the same respect as other religions. The US has caused or worsened nearly all of the conflicts in the Mideast, and is responsible for the refugees. But the guilty West can be expected to defend against criminals among refugees.
Therefore the US must stop causing the problems, pay for the extensive damages, and correct its corrupted non-democracy by getting rid of the zionist/KSA/MIC bribe-takers, protect its democratic institutions from money influence, and embark upon a future of humanitarian programs and cooperation in all of its foreign relations.
That sounds like a plan. How are we going to protect our democratic institutions from money influence? I think that this line of defense of democracy has been the dominant force which has kept America a viable democracy. To the extent we cannot protect our democratic institutions from money influence we will never achieve it. There have been some recent Supreme Court decisions like Citizens United vs. FEC and McCutcheon vs. FEC that have enabled the influence of money to have a greatly increased influence on our democracy which have greatly weakened our democratic institutions. Go read about these Supreme Court cases and get back to me with your thoughts. I think they have had an enormous impact on the handing over of our democracy to the money powers.
I have a thought about that that might work, and I’d love some discussion about it. That is: We follow the Bernie model by only supporting crowd sourced candidates, set up an on-line contribution system backed by an an apparatus that only allows individual donations, absolutely no anonymous donations, and possibly a cap on individual donations. Then demand that candidates only accept this sourcing. As a Bernie supporter, about the time of the DNC problems, I became rather paranoid that my donations through Act Blue were being co-opted by the DNC for Hillary’s use and began giving only directly by check to the Bernie Campaign. Why can’t regulated hierarchy be set up to guarantee small individual donations? And, wouldn’t that sideline Corporate donations?
tang fan, I, too am so glad you spoke up. “Fundamentalism was a CIA project” – this is SO important and all US citizens should know it! All this chaos, persecution, destruction, killing – all the devastation of Muslim families – all the refugees and retribution – this vendetta vendetta back and forth fighting – NONE of this horrific situation was a natural outcome of anything! It was truly all artificially manufactured – desired by the wealthpowerful and carried out by their servants in the CIA, US congress, etc. I am (unsuccessfully, alas) searching my files for a great old article that laid it all out about how the leadership of nearly all predominately Muslim countries had been making great progress in bringing modernization at a steady pace to their respective countries – as you point out re Afghanistan – about how quality of life, good government, etc. was on a great path in the Islamic world – right up until the CIA stepped in to derail their ‘peace and plenty’ progress! Perhaps you, tang fan – or anybody else here?? – know the writing I am referring to? If anyone else read that piece, please share – I’ll keep looking for it, too.
Citizen One desperately needs to read it – judging by that – I’ll call it weird – ahem – post he/she wrote.
Oh – and to backwardsevolution: If I had to, I could round you up at least hundreds of thousands of white male high school seniors who are unwavering in their belief that women are indeed inferior to men and who definitely put their fanatical Christian religion ahead of country. Just in case you want to put them on a plane outta here, too, ya know?
E. Leete – “If I had to, I could round you up at least hundreds of thousands of white male high school seniors who are unwavering in their belief that women are indeed inferior to men and who definitely put their fanatical Christian religion ahead of country. Just in case you want to put them on a plane outta here, too, ya know?”
Even if we pretend you are right about that, it still doesn’t matter because these people are already U.S. citizens. Of course you can’t just put them on a plane. But I was talking about the incoming refugee/migrants. Why add more idiots to the mix? And you don’t have to be religious to hold the view that women are less than men. I know quite a few women who feel it’s the opposite way around.
But given the choice, why bring in people who believe that stoning is okay, that homosexuals are deviants, that women are less than men, that little girls should have their genitals mutilated, that Sharia Law should be the law of the land?
Maybe I didn’t make my point clear enough. I meant GIVEN THE CHOICE!
Yes, the American people have a right to ask serious and pointed questions of who wants to enter their country. The great suffering the U.S. has caused around the world and the resultant and understandable anger is the reason they need to ask these questions. Retaliation comes to mind.
“Fundamentalism was a CIA project”. Certainly has been in many Muslim countries, but not all. In many countries, Islam is the problem. In many countries “Fundamentalism is an Islam project”.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
I am not a strong proponent of multiculturalism. I think it waters a country down, makes it weaker, divides it. Have at it.
Do not confuse media rantings with facts.Israel has pervasively sought to demonize Islam in american media for over half a century now. Genetic mutilation is a cultural practice not an Islamic one. You will not find this happening in malaysia, indonesia,, bangladesh etc.. It only occurs in a handful of african countries with both muslim and chritian populations.In countries with majority Muslims Muslim women have served as heads of state. Blaming all Muslims for the act of a few is like blaming Brazilians for christian fundamentalists in america.
tang fan – I wasn’t blaming all Muslims. Thank you for clearing up the genital mutilation. I’ll look into that.
Yes, I remember Pakistan’s Benazir Bhutto. I doubt very much whether that would happen in Saudi Arabia, but maybe I’m wrong. It hasn’t happened in the U.S. either. But the women are treated terribly in Saudi Arabia, or is that just propaganda too? Maybe we’re being lied to. I’ve always read that women can’t go out of the house without a male escort.
While I completely concur with all criticism of FGM, what is your position on male genital mutilation, ie circumcision?
Thank you. I have been waging a battle against the ignorance for years.
Female circumcision was practised in Egypt before Moses.
In countries in N Africa, Muslims, Christians and Jews practice it, just as male genital mutilation has been practised for several thousand years.
With this age of gender equality, if you ban one, you must ban both.
PJ London – well, there you go.
“With this age of gender equality, if you ban one, you must ban both.”
So until you stop circumcising little boys, we have the right to keep committing female genital mutilation? Is there a difference between the two? What is the outcome of both procedures? Think again, man. You’d have to lop off a portion of the male part for the two to be equivalent! You want equivalency? Go to it. I dare you! Talk about ignorance.
It is ridiculous in the extreme to equate removal of foreskin with removal of the clitoris.
Are you sure?
This effort to subvert constitutional law, free speech and the rule of law itself with this new anti- BDS edict seems to be a sort of reverse Nazism. It is in line with the new congressional decree promulgated almost unanimously taking away the right of the president to eliminate sanctions and sealing the existence of an extraterritorial extra- legal financial war system.
Trump’s hiring of Kelly as chief of staff tells us that he is honest and earnest in his efforts to build the wall and is firmly convinced that the global war on terrorism is a necessary and noble cause for the West. Therefore he is fulfilling his campaign pledges and is doing the things he said he would do. I think Trump is little concerned about the Palestinians and views them as just another group of enemies of the West. Whether or not one agrees with his plans at least he is pursuing what he said he would do. The folks who applauded the promise of a wall to stop illegal immigration should be very happy right now. The folks who view fundamentalist Islam as a threat should also be happy right now. I am on the fence. I see that the actions of the US military have flamed the passions of anti western Islamist’s for a worthy reason in their eyes and I see our desire to stop terrorism also as a worthy reason in our eyes.
Trump’s “us against them” policy and his hiring of Kelly is a sign he supports a military viewpoint that we are under attack by Islamist groups who seek to wage a war with the West and that we need to prepare ourselves for a war on Islamist based attempts to destabilize the West via terrorist attacks. We do face threats to our nation which although we might have through our actions fanned the flames of terrorist organizations and swelled the ranks of Muslims who seek to take revenge for western military assaults on Islamic nations by our military we also have an obligation to defend and protect our citizens from attacks. There is little doubt that there is a very real attack on western culture by fundamentalist Islam. If you are exposed to the vitriol and hatred first hand you walk away feeling that we need to take every necessary action to stop it. I cannot fault Kelly for his feelings since he experienced it firsthand in Iraq. I also cannot fault him or Trump for a clear eyed realization that there will be no attempt by the Islam majority nations to make peace with the west and that they intend to do battle. That makes it an easy choice for us to take a military position and prepare to neutralize the threat through force. It is also easy to see how the recent terrorist attacks in Europe serve as a cautionary tale for liberal European immigration policies which granted immigrant status to potential enemy combatants and by the effect of those policies have enabled disgruntled immigrants to conduct the recent attacks throughout Europe to our shock and horror. I can also see why there is a desire to not replicate the situation Europe faces here at home. Historians will endlessly argue who is at fault for the current situation and military men like Kelly will always argue we must defend ourselves as a first priority and leave the analysis to the historians as to why we must now engage the threat with military force. The America First cause is bred into military men for a reason. It is their job to defend America against all threats and to further our interests globally. The Islamists who believe they need to attack the west no doubt feel the same about our actions as attacks which need to be thwarted and and also spread the view that Islam is under attack by the west. Both camps are taking a hard line and are prepared to oppose each other with military actions whether they are our own military actions against terrorism or are conducted by our enemies in the name of justice for their cause. The reality is we are heading deeper into conflicts with Islam and are increasingly viewing it as a threat which must be squashed while fundamentalist jihad groups in the Muslim world see the same threats from western aggression and feel the same need to fight back. I am sure Trump sees the opposition and the attacks by terrorists as a clear need to defend ourselves. We are all probably biased toward defense of our Nation and less concerned about the reasons we are under attack which are surely at least partly our fault. In the end, we will choose to fight and we will not be so concerned about our enemy and its reasons for attacking us.
Missing in this equation is negotiation and it is missing from both sides. Probably neither side believes there is a negotiated settlement that will preserve the interests of their respective causes for military actions. Both sides are locked in an “us against them” paradigm
There is also ample evidence that both sides feel appeasement will not work and the only solution is a military victory over the enemy.
Where this all goes, nobody knows. But it is clear that both sides are hardening their positions rather that seeking other conflict resolution methods to deescalate the fighting.
CitizenOne – good post. Because of what the West has done in the Middle East, you can certainly understand Arab anger. But since there is anger, Trump needs to defend the U.S. from attack and be very selective in who enters the U.S.
But even if Muslims are coming without anger, they need to be asked some pointed questions: do they believe that women are less equal than men; do they believe in female genital mutilation (which is apparently happening in the U.S.); do they believe that their religion takes precedence over allegiance to their country?
There’s probably more that could be asked, but this is a good start. If they can’t answer appropriately and with conviction, they should not be considered at all. Totally different ideology between the Western world and the Muslim world.
Was just reading a very good five-page article by a woman who has helped refugees for years, and yet she has been absolutely shocked by the sexual assaults committed in Europe by the refugees/migrants, especially the Afghans. It’s an eye-opening read, coming from someone who has compassion for them:
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/ive-worked-refugees-decades-europes-afghan-crime-wave-mind-21506
backwardsevolution – It boggles my mind that you are supporting the phony “Muslims are entering our country and committing terrorist actons” BS. Your endorsement of Citizen One’s remarks above baffled me, but I thought maybe you didn’t notice the parts of that which made me balk. It pains me to have to question the ideas of those I have learned so much from. But my comittment to truth impels me to that uncomfortable task anyhow. As in my post to Citizen One, don’t get me wrong, I do not reject a person because of some of their ideas I disagree with. I will continue to learn from your sharings.
mike k – where did I say that “Muslims are entering our country and committing terrorist actions”? Maybe you should read my post again. I said it was understandable that Muslims would be angry. And since they ARE angry (totally not their fault – didn’t say it was), then the U.S. should be careful to protect their citizens from this “potential” anger. Doesn’t mean it will happen, but it could.
Did you read the article I linked to? What did you think of it? Is it okay that young girls are being raped and it’s all being hushed up? Why is it being hushed up? Well, it’s not okay in my book, anger or not. It’s putting citizens in direct harm and that is just plain stupid.
And, no, a refugee/migrant who believes that female genital mutilation is okay should not be allowed into the country. Period. Talk about terrorism!
I’m not going to reject you either.
What do ‘Muslims” have to do with the article or with the behaviour of Israel and the Zionists?
Unless of course you are trying to pull the wool over peoples’ eyes with the ‘equivalency’ nonsense.
By your standards it would be OK to cut off a thief’s fingers because the ‘Muslims’ cut off their hands.
The argument is both really simple and very sick.
“But even if Muslims are coming without anger, they need to be asked some pointed questions: do they believe that women are less equal than men; do they believe in female genital mutilation (which is apparently happening in the U.S.); do they believe that their religion takes precedence over allegiance to their country?”
What about our need for equal pay for equal work, or no circumcisions which are some cultural problems here in the US.
“do they believe that their religion takes precedence over allegiance to their country?” Shouldn’t we ask that of AIPAC?
I am not “on the fence” about who is responsible for the millions who have died in Amerika’s fake war on terrorism. If there is any group overwhelmingly responsible for this situation, I know who it is. The USA created Osama and all the rest that followed. Ever since it has used it’s Islamic Terrorist Frankenstein Monster to scare it’s population into supporting it’s genocidal wars against any nation that opposes it’s claim to world dominance. To say there is enough blame to go around is bullshit that does not serve the cause of truth and peace. To pretend there is some equivalence between the actions of Muslims and “Christian” western nations is a lie. This is the BS of MSM propaganda, “ after all they are just as guilty as we are” – BULLSHIT! This is the game propagandists for Israel try to play viz a viz the Palestinians. “They killed one of our Israeli’s, so we get to kill 1,000 of them.” Oh, I forgot – the Jews are the exceptional Master Race, That makes it OK, just as it is OK for the US to murder millions, because after all we are the chosen of God to rule the Earth.
Please, let’s not confuse the issue. Let us call the most evil by their true name – Destroyers of Humanity. If you don’t know who that is, then you need to open your eyes.
Citizen One, I can’t believe it was you who wrote this stuff above. I think you probably just were not aware of what you were saying. I have learned a lot from your posts here, and I respect your point of view in all you have written here except this last vacillating, unclear piece. Tell me in ain’t so Joe? I do not intend what I have said above as an attack on you personally, but I felt I had to counter a couple of ideas you put forth.
Yours in the one Work for a better world – mike k
PS – If there are any historians left after this possibly terminal chapter of the human story, I really don’t think they will have any trouble assigning primary responsibility for the conflict between members of two cultures having somewhat different religious ideas. The folks in the Middle East just happened to have the good/bad luck to be sitting on the largest easily accessible oil reserves on the planet.
Perhaps the countries that create the refugees should be forced to take them. Americans would soon be protesting in the streets to end foreign interventions
ain’t that the truth!
Very good idea – but it would have to be an international treaty arbitrated by the ICC (Int’l Criminal Court), to which the US has refused to submit by signing the Treaty of Rome. In fact the US is the only nation to pass a law to militarily attack the Hague if any of its staff are brought to trial for war crimes. Like our universal political corruption, we just make it legal and attack all critics as subversives.
The People who created the refugees live in gated communities, the only refugees they’d let in our house servants and sex slaves. But I get your point.
Those who create the refugees put the blame on others!
you took the words right out of my mouth. thanks for calling BS BS in no uncertain terms, mike
and hey you, too, Sam F – thanks for calling out the “warmonger’s apology”
a songline comes to mind: “with our hands all tied to the blades of their design, we are all too ready to commit this crime” (apologies to the band motion city soundtrack)
mike k: Your passionate comments are always on the side of the Truth. You tell it – The Truth – as it should be told. Thanks.
mike k
You said:
“Citizen One, I can’t believe it was you who wrote this stuff above. I think you probably just were not aware of what you were saying. I have learned a lot from your posts here, and I respect your point of view in all you have written here except this last vacillating, unclear piece. Tell me in ain’t so Joe? I do not intend what I have said above as an attack on you personally, but I felt I had to counter a couple of ideas you put forth.”
I understand your comment and I don’t find anything you said to be offensive to me even if it was said with enthusiasm.
I appreciate your criticism and I am open to reexamining my post.
There is one point I would ask you to indulge me on. Understand that it was written from a third person perspective in an attempt at getting in the heads of the folks who see the recent events as a good thing. It was an attempt to see through the eyes of the Trump camp and to see and explain what they are thinking and why the people who voted for Trump based on his campaign promises should be very happy about the appointment of General Kelly to chief of staff.
I think I did a fairly good job based on your reaction.
“Sitting on the fence” is another way to say “I am a spectator”.
The post was meant to be just that. A spectator watching a fight between two groups and trying to clearly see in my own mind how they framed the battle in their minds. That is all that I was trying to do.
I think I got it right and if you reread the post with the understanding that I am trying to frame the situation as an impartial observer who is trying to be sympathetic to each point of view based on my interpretation of how they view the situation without passing judgement on whether or not the points of view are correct I think you will see what I was trying to do.
You might have just helped to identify the root cause of the current media problem. If I performed this “sitting on the fence” analysis giving equal weight to the viewpoints of the people who see the situation as a good thing and you found it to be offensive then perhaps this is the root cause of why the media publishes stuff that drives people crazy.
I think I fairly well nailed the current situation and I ended it with “who knows where this is going” which is another “sitting on the fence” phrase which again portrays neutrality and an impartial equivocation usually practiced by our media.
I agree that we know where this is going.
Know thy enemy. That is an age old saying. Now the task at hand is once we know where these folks are coming from how can we prepare a counter argument that will find a place inside their minds to influence them to see the situation in a different light.
I am racking my brain as to how to counter the fairly open and shut case in the minds of the parties that there is no possibility of negotiation and the only solution is military action. I think I have figured out their mindsets in a very accurate way. Those mindsets are forged from some powerful experiences and they are going to be difficult to change.
It is fairly a daunting task. Trump and Kelly see the issue of immigration through the lens of the European experience and want to avoid replicating that experience here at home. Each terrorist attack over there cements more firmly in their minds that they must build a wall and attack the enemy. We are falling into a fortress mentality and circling the wagons, rounding up the immigrants and shipping them back home in order to preserve peace at home. I think this is uncharted territory. When has it been done? But they are very serious about doing it.
Go back, reread the post and see the situation through their eyes. Then try to figure out a way to move toward toward the one work for a better world. knowing the reality inside the heads of the folks who are preparing on both sides to settle this thing with a war.
The striking thing is that from their perspective, there is no ambiguity. They have a plan. We do not have a plan. The plan we must come up with which avoids war must counter every inclination with a very different perspective which they find plausible. Also it must resonate with the American People. Trump’s plan clearly resonates with the American People and they are not sitting on the fence. They are in Trump’s camp.
I am in no way in favor of a war against Islam. But when Israel build walls as a solution to their dilemma and we follow suit with our own plans to build walls and ban Muslims we first need to understand why they do this and we do the same thing and then find persuasive alternatives to wall building.
There needs to be another plan that Americans will find appealing. More appealing than building a wall.
If you are trying to present the adversary view that I called the “warmonger’s apology” I would suggest some language to clarify that, like “they think.”
The major fallacies that I pointed out are based upon
1. lack of public understanding of the causes of Islamic radicalism;
2. lack of understanding of the diverse views within largely Islamic states;
3. lack of understanding of the MIC/Israel/KSA warmongering influences upon US policy;
4. lack of understanding of what the US has done and why, and the consequences such as the refugee problem.
This is all due to the corruption of Congress and of public information, due to the corruption of mass media and elections by money. If we start with such propaganda and derive a policy, we end up just where we are. So it seems that a strategy of finding a rational platform to gain the votes of the propaganda sheeple can lead only to the platforms of the duopoly, which is whatever the MIC/Israel/KSA demands.
To persuade Trump supporters, I think that we have to clarify the facts (the real US history in the region, the falsehood of their propaganda beliefs, particularly the facts of US foreign policy corruption), remind them of the national principles and the principles of morality, and show them that they can have better security and a better world through humanitarian interventions instead of wars. They don’t want Mideast wars, and need to know that the wars are unnecessary.
But we can’t do that precisely because money controls elections and mass media, the very tools needed to protect democracy from money. We have only a tyranny of oligarchy to start with, and must devise more fundamental solutions.
Yes Yes and Yes! We need to clarify the facts surrounding the real US history in the region.. We need to remind them of our national principals of morality and show them, meaning ourselves, and those to whom we perpetrated crimes upon that we are controlled by other forces which we do not hold as our moral underpinnings as humans. We need to communicate in words and deeds that we can all have better security and that we can have a better world through humanitarian interventions instead of military interventions.
But we can’t do that because money controls elections and mass media, the very tools needed to protect democracy from money.
So we need to mount a campaign against the money that controls elections and our mass media which presents an “us against them” viewpoint and argues that war is the way to “solve” problems.
We have really failed to grasp the effect of how money controls elections which are the very tools needed to protect democracy from money. Our Supreme Court has granted the money unprecedented powers to influence elections and hence control of our democracy. That is why we are in the path to war. The money has a plan to get us involved in a war where our morals are cast aside and our belief that all men are created equal has been dashed on the rocks because our government has been taken over by the money.
The money wants to trash our Constitution. The Federalist Society wants to roll back government laws to before the turn of the century. They want to (ALEC wants to) eliminate the election of Congressmen by a majority of voters and return the United States to a former era where members of Congress choose who will become Congressmen and are hand picked by those already in power who will be like minded.
This is not democracy
They are already in power and the plan to stuff Congress with those who will bow to power by the folks who already bow to power is a very bad sign.
CitizenOne – well, it was clear to me that you were “sitting on a fence”. Why it wasn’t clear to anyone else is beyond me. I was sitting on a fence too (maybe not as much as you) when I described what was happening in Europe (some out of understandable anger) and stated that the U.S. must be careful that the same doesn’t happen here. You didn’t have to say “they think”. It was implied in your writing, IMO.
I think this is something we are going to see going forward. People are losing jobs, others are migrating to where they think jobs are, automation is increasing, over-population is a huge problem, easily-obtainable resources are running out.
But let’s crank up that growth, shall we? That’s the ticket, that’ll solve everything. People are going to get exactly what they deserve.
This is the warmonger’s apology, ignoring the fact that the US caused every bit of this anger by allowing politicians to be bribed by zionists to become warmongers. The US caused every bit of this problem by deliberate acts.
There is no excuse that “we are under attack” for we have never been attacked by Islamists before we attacked them with numerous secret wars and later invasions.
It is not true that “both camps are taking a hard line” when there is no camp outside the US beyond the scattered insurgencies caused entirely by US actions, and the Israel/KSA warmongers who have bribed all of our politicians to subvert democracy. If “we are under attack” it is certainly by them and only them.
It is completely false that “there will be no attempt by the Islam majority nations to make peace with the west and that they intend to do battle.”
1. Nearly all Islam majority nations are communicative and peaceful with the US: Pakistan, KSA, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, many others.
2. Not one Islamic nation is at war with the US: it is the US that has made war upon them, mostly for zionist campaign bribes, and earlier to attack the USSR.
No one is fooled by the warmonger’s apology. They started it, Daddy? Daddy was watching.
‘I think I can say, and say with pride, that we have legislatures that bring higher prices than any in the world.’ ~ Mark Twain
Thanks, I didn’t know that Twain gem. We have “the best democracy money can buy.”
Good post Sam F
You have countered all the claims that constitute the current group think. Know however that the opposite of your claims are deeply held beliefs by a majority of Americans. Know also that the group think that we are under attack has been the cause for all wars. It is not the warmongers apology. It is the warmongers claim and exclamation that we are under attack which has driven us to war since the dawn of time.
Merely claiming it to be a false claim is just countering a claim with another claim. But your claims are just that. Empty claims without facts to back them up have no impact. They are just the same as the empty claims presented by the warmongers except the warmongers have the backing of the majority of Americans as well as the mass media behind their claims.
Just look at the acceptance by the majority of Americans that the Russians and only the Russians are responsible for our recent election. Why do they believe that? Because the mass media has been on a campaign to trot out that claim backed by all the power they have to propagandize this nation on a 24/7 mission to use every news minute with a singular claim based on nothing that the Russians are to blame.
I can assure you that merely stating counter claims will be insufficient to change hearts and minds which are saturated by the news coverage.
Here is what you need to do:
Back up these claims you made.
There is no excuse that “we are under attack” for we have never been attacked by Islamists before we attacked them with numerous secret wars and later invasions. Find the time to write about all the numerous secret wars and later invasions. I have and I find it to be useful to explain whay this is so rather than stating it is so.
It is not true that “both camps are taking a hard line” when there is no camp outside the US beyond the scattered insurgencies caused entirely by US actions, and the Israel/KSA warmongers who have bribed all of our politicians to subvert democracy. If “we are under attack” it is certainly by them and only them. Find the time to explain to folks exactly the ways and instances this was caused solely by the USA Make cogent arguments and cite facts. You must do it to make it real.
It is completely false that “there will be no attempt by the Islam majority nations to make peace with the west and that they intend to do battle.”
1. Nearly all Islam majority nations are communicative and peaceful with the US: Pakistan, KSA, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, many others. Cite specific examples of how Islam majority nations are communicative and peaceful with the US. People need examples to make the case that this is so. Make it real for them.
2. Not one Islamic nation is at war with the US: it is the US that has made war upon them, mostly for zionist campaign bribes, and earlier to attack the USSR. You need to back these statements up with some examples. When you use real events with accurate descriptions of those events that back your point up people will believe it.
No one is fooled by the warmonger’s apology. They started it, Daddy? Daddy was watching. Daddy can’t convince the kids in America to believe anything by just a “they started it” claim. That is just the same argument Daddy uses to convince us that all Muslims are bad people.
The sad thing is everybody is fooled by the warmongers claims. They have the megaphone. You do not. You will have to frame your argument backed with lots of examples and facts to convince people.
The requirement to back claims with facts is what makes this website alive. It is a requirement imposed by Robert Parry in his own journalistic style to have all the facts behind his claims lined up like ducks in a row to back up his claims with evidence that makes his stories so compelling.
If everyone did this and I think I do a fairly good job most of the time to back up my claims with some references we would multiply the effectiveness of the message many times.
However, to the extent we merely throw out claims without evidence we are no better than witch hunters.
Go back and flesh out your claims with some examples of what you claim which are factual and convincing and see how much more your voice will be amplified.
If you are going to argue with the men who buy ink by the barrel you better be prepared to write a lot with convincing narratives filled with examples rather than just making empty claims that what they say is wrong.
Yes, claims must be backed by facts, but a comment countering an entire policy view can only itemize the contrary points; full argument is only possible on a narrow point.
Usually when I make broad comments, I itemize the argument to make it more than a mere opinion, and that gives the reader some basis for discussion. Agreed that an alternative news website can do so with articles examining each point, for which we value this site.
It is also helpful to readers to cite articles on the details, and it would be useful to have lists of links to do that, although some such comments disappear into moderation for some time.
Sam F and Citizen One, I deeply appreciate your give and take and I want to encourage you to continue it on this forum because as I see it this is the only form where people with some vision of a more positive future can discuss the complexity of that… Thanks to all on this thread. Civil and Smart…
You see the real essence of this deranged xenophobia in the despicable assertion that Kelly experienced Islamist vitriol and hatred at first hand, IN IRAQ. That Kelly was a war criminal involved in an illegal aggression in Iraq, that killed over one million human beings, seems not to have occurred to this creature. He seems to think that the Iraqis should have groveled before the Western butchers who had slaughtered their families and neighbours, licking their boots like mongrel dogs.
Here is the full list for S.720 Israel Anti-Boycott Act. Senator Benjamin Cardin (Jewish) sponsored this bill. 46 co-sponsors, plus 1 sponsor (Cardin) = 47. 15 Democrats; 32 Republicans.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/720/cosponsors?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22Israel+Anti-Boycott+act%22%5D%7D&r=1
Go AIPAC! That lobby should be registered as a Foreign Agent. Only Israel (this is what I’ve read) is exempt from registering any foreign agents.
Here is the list of Senator contacts to admonish your traitor in the Senate to dump the “S.720 Israel Anti-Boycott Act”, eliminate US aid to Israel, and eliminate US support of Israeli land theft, discrimination, and warmongering in the Mideast. You may want to remind them that you will not continue to vote for a candidate who takes money from AIPAC to give more money to Israel and to advocate and promote war crimes.
https://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
Senators promise to amend Israel boycott bill after backlash:
“On Monday night, in an op-ed in the Washington Post, two top officials at the ACLU stood by their legal interpretation. “Violations would be punishable by civil and criminal penalties of up to $1 million and 20 years in prison,” write David Cole and Faiz Shakir, the ACLU’s legal and political directors, respectively.
“We thought we only dealt with civil penalties, not criminal penalties,” Cardin told The Intercept. “But if that’s not clear, we’re willing to deal with these issues.”
If the bill were amended to clarify that no criminal penalties could be applied, violators would still face a $250,000 civil fine or more.”
https://theintercept.com/2017/07/25/cardin-amend-israel-boycott-bill-bds/
Chicken feed – $250,000.00 civil fine or more!
Who the hell do these people think they are? The senators have no problem sanctioning Russia (when it has done nothing), but with Israel, “Oh, the poor baby, it must be protected.” Yeah, right.
I do not like that Chuck Schumer. To me, he looks and sounds like a sleazy shyster, a sly salesman. No doubt a dual citizen. Let’s make him pledge an allegiance and then go after him every time he meets with an Israeli (just like he’s done with Russia).
Oh, they’re saying they didn’t know what was in the bill. Come on, we weren’t born yesterday. They were hoping they could slide it through without anybody noticing. Criminals.
You have to be a crook to get in the US congress. Otherwise nobody in that outfit would be able to trust you – you might even jump up and tell the truth about something!
Schumer the Sleazy Shyster…has a ring to it B.E.
Gregory – good alliteration!
Oh, yes, I almost forgot about this. Really takes the cake. Americans prohibited under force of law and onerous penalties to desist from speaking the truth as they perceive it. That’s the ticket.
The unfortunate irony is that Aipac money not only lobbies for the interests of a foreign state, it buys influence far beyond the contributions it receives from zionist supporters…and that influence arrogates taxpayer money toward the suppression of human rights and bellicose policies that sustain perpetual conflicts.
Perhaps to keep cries of anti-semitism down, Mr. Davidson has given us an accurate yet muted report on the proposed law to make BDS illegal. If passed, the fines for anyone who supports BDS in any fashion (by word or deed) are horrendous. I am horrified and FURIOUS that 14 Democratic Senators voted for this! I tried to find out who they were, but was unable to find the whole list. However, what I did find was utterly terrifying, for the names are the backbone of the current Democratic party (which is one more reason why I am no longer a Democrat). Here are the names I found, (if anyone has the full list I hope they post it):
Charles Schumer (N.Y.) the village idiot who is re-elected to the Senate repeatedly.
Kristen Gilibrand (N.Y.)
Adam Schiff (smooth talking whiner)
Maria Cantwell (WA) I thought she knew better than this
Clair McCaskill (well what can you expect from a right wing centrist Democrat)
Ron Wyden (and I actually thought he was intelligent and sincere)
Richard Blumenthal
Ben Cardin (MD) He is an original co-sponsor of the bill.
Although I am not jewish, I have numerous relatives who are. I was born and bred in N.Y.C. long ago and the vast majority of my friends there were/are jewish. Because everyone of them is connected to the entertainment business (radio, TV and theater) they are a talented, liberal bunch and I don’t think any of them would disagree with me that Chuck Schumer is an idiot and the rest of the people who voted for this are too. But it does give us readers a clear idea of just who these people really are. And I hope, if you readers saw your senator’s name listed as someone who voted for this ugly, insane bill, that you will let him/her have a piece of your mind. The ignorance demonstrated by the Senators who voted for this is staggering! It’s time to call out the Senate and the House for their repeated and deliberate ignorance of things that matter – and this is one of them.
Everyone you disagree with is an idiot? That says a lot more about you than them. Your opinions are just that. No more. No less.
Your entitlement to being “right” is foolish.
Well, “peacedoc” do you want a US law that forces religious discrimination upon Americans?
Do you regard that view as non-ignorant? Do you see that it is unconstitutional?
Do you think that every argument is “no more” than an opinion? That says a lot about you.
The proposed legislation is blatantly unconstitutional, and yes, idiotic…because the purpose it serves does not advance truth or understanding, but rather negates it and worse. So in a real sense, the sponsers are “idiots”, but “bought-and-paid-for unethical sellouts” might give a more rounded view to their mental state.
It’s a Bill not a Law. No one has voted for it yet. The people listed have co-sponsored it. Many of them apparently without reading it. Some of them have said they would reconsider after the ACLU objected.
There is still time to stop it. If it passes though, it’s all over. I can’t imagine Trump vetoing it.
Sen. Nelson, Bill [D-FL]
Sen. Menendez, Robert [D-NJ]
Sen. Blumenthal, Richard [D-CT]
Sen. Peters, Gary C. [D-MI]
Sen. Cantwell, Maria [D-WA]
Sen. Schumer, Charles E. [D-NY]
Sen. Hassan, Margaret Wood [D-NH]
Sen. Gillibrand, Kirsten E. [D-NY]
Sen. Donnelly, Joe [D-IN]
Sen. Manchin, Joe, III [D-WV]
Sen. McCaskill, Claire [D-MO]
Sen. Wyden, Ron [D-OR]
Sen. Coons, Christopher A. [D-DE]
Sen. Bennet, Michael F. [D-CO]
That’s supposed to be the list of co-sponsors to go along with Sen. Cardin, Benjamin L. [D-MD]. Naturally the fake democrat from Indiana is there. No way under heaven will I vote for him. Not that he cares. The corruption of the whole system guarantees he’d be OK whether in or out of the Senate.
Still, I’d rather be represented by a knuckle-dragging Republican than a Democrat who pretends to be on my side yet votes as a Republican on important issues.
“Still, I’d rather be represented by a knuckle-dragging Republican than a Democrat who pretends to be on my side yet votes as a Republican on important issues.”
Important issues like healthcare and the Supreme Court.
Your understanding of how the Senate works is impressive indeed.
Good old Joe Donnelly voted for Neil Gorsuch to be on the Supreme Court. A really great Republican posing as a Democrat. Given the nature of Indiana, he’ll be reelected if he wants to keep the job.
“Good old Joe Donnelly voted for Neil Gorsuch to be on the Supreme Court. A really great Republican posing as a Democrat.”
And Republican control of the Senate allowed Trump to fill a position that was kept vacant the final year of the Obama administration.
And with respect to Donnelly, in particular, his vote helped prevent McConnell’s clever machinations regarding the healthcare bills from being successful, with all the very real harm to very real people that would have resulted.
While there is frequently barely a ‘dimes worth of difference’ between the two parties, that dime can mean a lot to some people.
If you suppose good old Joe is my friend on healthcare, consider this from a few days ago.
h**p://www.washingtonexaminer.com/senate-rejects-single-payer-healthcare/article/2629908
( Jul 27, 2017)
From Naked Capitalism 2013:
h**p://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/10/46940.html#constraints
There is a LOT to gain if you toe the line and vote the way Big Insurance wants. On the flip side, there is a LOT to lose if you vote against them. Or against Israel.
Good old Joe has not shown himself to be a profile in courage, and voting against the crap thrown out by Mitch McConnell is not anything at all to brag about.
Since we’ve nixed the Supreme Court and Health Care, do you have any other reasons for me not to vote for a knuckledragging Republican next Indiana Senatorial election? It’s true I’ll be getting an ass beyond compare, but at least he won’t be pretending to be anything other than that that. Quite unlike my current guy – good old Joe.
If you honestly think single-payer is anywhere close to realization, you’re fooling yourself. By the way, that’s coming from a longtime advocate of Medicare-for-all (I might add a working advocate, through membership in a professional organization and lobbying/lecturing my peers). I’m aware that the ACA is flawed, however the Medicaid expansion alone has been a godsend to millions of individuals (not to mention the way it addressed women’s health, recission, preexisting conditions, etc.). Good for you that none of these things are important to you, but to most people they are.
If extreme right-wing control of the Supreme Court (and what that means with respect to voting rights for minorities, environmental regulations, police powers, labor unions, etc) for a generation or two isn’t enough in-and-of itself, you’d probably feel more at home at National Review than Consortium. While guys like Donelly and Manchin are in fact ‘Republican-lite’, you don’t seem to understand that if those are two of 51 Democratic Senators, that gives majority power in the Senate to a party that also includes Al Franken, Elizabeth Warren, Sherrod Brown, and Bernie Sanders, as opposed to one that includes Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, and Lindsey Graham.
BobS, you are not a single-payer advocate let alone a worker for it, with your accusations that such advocates are somehow right wingers. Your comments on this site show clearly that you are a troll and nothing else.
Heckuva argument you got there, Anon.
Let me guess- you’re a benchwarmer in the rookie league.
Obviously you’ve been paying no attention whatever to my actual posts. The US senator under discussion, the fake Democrat Joseph Simon Donnelly Sr., voted for the extreme right-wing Neil Gorsuch
Anon, you’re much quicker on the uptake than I am.
:)
Hot News Flash from Indiana – AKA “Mississippi North”:
Congressman Luke Messer plans to run against good old Joe Donnelly. A bit of investigation shows him to be a right-wing knuckle-dragger, but at least he isn’t pretending to be anything else.
Joe Donnelly is not a Medicare for All supporter as of August 2, 2017.
Luke Messer is not a Medicare for All supporter as of August 2, 2017.
h**p://www.medicareforall.org/support_by_state.php?state=IN
Yes, I’m screwed in either event in 2018, but longer term there won’t be as much “bi-partisan” labeling slapped on the crap legislation.
Zachary, your understanding of the American political system is nearly as sophisticated as Anon’s- the right plays hardball while you guys circle-jerk.
ranney – see my post below which shows the full list.
“Maria Cantwell (WA) I thought she knew better than this”
She is one of my Senators. From the start she has been an establishment, corporate Democrat who votes for war funding and terrible NDAA, as well as the TPP. Her first election was only after she used big corporate money (she’d been a corporate lawyer before she ran) to oust someone much more progressive in the primary.
I would be surprised if she hadn’t co-sponsored this.
I will never vote for her, even though with our horrid top two primary my choices are her or some troglodyte Republican tea partier. I’ll write in a real progressive.
Miranda – Cantwell did co-sponsor this bill. See my post below for a full list of the Senators.
At this point I’m not sure why you expected democratic senators to vote against Israel. To do so is to challenge the same financial juggernaut that rammed the Federal Reserve down our throats. Rothschild spawned both the Fed and Israel. This is why materialistic people go along and suck up to the Zionist agenda. All Zionists should be relocated to Israel seeing as how they are more concerned with it than US or Canada.
I’d like to put my name down here as well, with the knowledge that my own country America must subject itself at some point to this kind of legal scrutiny. If mankind is ever to achieve peace and understanding’ this is the route.
It’s good you bring this up Bob, because ‘yes’ we Americans have a lot to do when it comes to practicing what we are preaching here. I do believe we have to honor, ‘that all men/women are created equally’.
And not forget the 20 million or so the US has killed since 1945. CIA funding arts and culture in every major capitol on Earth. Corporatized rock and role. etc
In so far as the greater numbers go, all we should talk about, is U.S. War Crimes.
America, the U.S. is the glass house. The U.S. is also a house that should get it’s own house in order, before setting out to conquer the world.
Thanks for the reminder.
Read this…
http://ahtribune.com/human-rights/american-human-rights/1757-indian-war-on-terror.html
This link relates to what we are talking about here.
Thank you Joe I’ve bookmarked that article for future reference…
Government control of the arts is a story we haven’t heard much of yet; the Google/Amazon/NYT control of the arts appears to be much greater than is widely known yet. That appears to be a primary explanation of our very depoliticized youth culture, and the insipid not-quite-anything song lyrics, complacent bestsellers, and similar trash foisted by oligarchy media on the public.
A new movie is a cartoon of emoticons, fer crissake. The Zionist Hollywood producers are laughing their asses off at how inane and gullible the masses are. Lego Bat man, too many stupid movies to list. So many great historical topics that would make great movies, but Hollywood releases mostly garbage. I think the producers are in a competition to see how ridiculous a movie they can make and idiots will still pour in to see it.
I can’t say when, or how it will play out, but the Palestinian will someday once again have their land back. I’m not sure if a Jewish leader will rise to defend the broken Palestinian, or it will be another, maybe even a Palestinian who may finally capture the media’s attention enough to make a difference, but these days will one day come to pass.
What is most concerning,and I think most Americans see this, is how owned our U.S. Congress and Presidency is in some cases (most cases), and how these American legislators cater to the AIPAC lobby like AIPAC was all that matters. I know this, to an American who hasn’t see a raise in their Social Security for quite sometime, seeing the U.S. Government be so thoroughly manipulated, and care free with their hard earned American taxpayer money going so easily to Israel, is considered dumb, and with some opinions this is even looked upon as being traitorous.
I hope I live long enough to see it, but even if I don’t, I’m praying for the Palestinian to finally get some relief from this Nazis style environment that the Zionist have put them in, come to an end.
Unfortunately the world’s (mainstream) media is part of the problem, and is especially sympathetic to those who oppose the BDS movement.
Good point.
All Americans need to understand these basic points: that anti-zionism is not anti-Jewish, that anti-semitism is a meaningless word (because Semites includes Arabs), and that zionism is an essentially fascist philosophy, in promoting the interests of a group at the expense of all others.
If the anti-BDS bill becomes law, it will be challenged, but the Supreme Court is corrupt. We need to get these understandings to our senators and reps, and admonish them to reject AIPAC money, force AIPAC to register as a foreign agent, and terminate payments to Israel. If they want to be Israelis, they must resign.
The members of Congress (representatives) are selected, bought and controlled by their campaign financiers to pass specific laws in favor of those financiers.
What happened during the Hillary-Sanders DNC primaries should have left no doubt about who Congress is fighting for; it is not the American voting population!
Yes, unfortunately this is now very true, and many Americans are waking up to the severity and near-universality of political corruption. The 2016 campaign corruption and its aftermath have been very educational for those without direct experience. Others prefer not to know, and must be told.
What happened during the Hillary-Sanders DNC primaries that was/is so significant?
Sam F,
Your words: All Americans need to understand these basic points: that anti-zionism is not anti-Jewish, that anti-semitism is a meaningless word (because Semites includes Arabs), and that zionism is an essentially fascist philosophy, in promoting the interests of a group at the expense of all others.
This is well stated and entirely correct. People in the US seem to conflate the two, Jewish & Zionist are two different entities and the word anti-Semitic is a ‘catch-all’ phrase to distract criticism of Israel in all forms and should be understood and articulated. The author of this article wrote that it is time for the Jewish community to have some uncomfortable conversations. I would suggest it is way past time for a cogent understanding of Zionism.
You can guess how the 33% Jewish contingent on the SCOTUS will vote. Even if they thought to dare decide otherwise, the example of Goldstone, subjected to a vicious campaign of vilification by the South African Jewish elite after the Gaza Cast Lead Report, who then recanted in the most debased and appalling fashion, would make them hesitate to invite such treatment themselves.
This nonviolent approach deserves our support. The present government and many of the people of Israel are
a horrible source of evil in our world. They are doing to the Arabs what the Nazis did to them. i am outspoken in my criticism of these evil people.
we really ARE on the same page, mike – I have been writing for a long time that one of the saddest and most bizarre things I’ve lived to witness is Israel going down the exact same path that led to people in ovens. boycott Israel is a solid rule for me, too.
Look at this poll in Canada.
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/cjpme/pages/2537/attachments/original/1488423127/EKOS_Poll_Results_Report_R2_-_2017-03-02-Final-v1.pdf?1488423127
the elected parliamentarians however voted unanimously that BDS was not to be supported. They narrowly refused to criminalise support of BDS. The same probably applies in the USA.
Western political stooges have been bought, lock, stock and barrel by Jewish money power. Any hold-outs, like Corbyn, are subject to vicious campaigns slandering them as ‘antisemites’. And all this, as plain a fact as one can discern regarding Western politics, is vehemently denied as, you guessed it, ‘antisemitism’. It is quite a racket.
The inheritors of Fascism.
Greetings mike k.,
The evil that has always been done to others, is not by evil people, but people that have or gain control of any entity or institution, be it in Kingship, Priesthood,even a Democratic State, etc. or against each other.You get your money in, you get direct or indirect control, whether, it was the Egyptian Priesthood against the Pharaoh or vice verse or any other movement since then. We remember the predated revolutionary lumber businessman, whose name I don’t shrugged that only the best lumber would go to England being the King’s lumber starting his own lobby ‘gainst ’em? It all comes down to protecting one’s own interest, which leads to power that others don’t have.
BDS is doing a great job on a morally, but they don’t have de gun, which the others have & will use when they see fit remembering Clausewitz: Krieg ist der Fortsetzing der Politik mit anderen Mittel. (War is the continuation of politics by other means.) Both Houses of Congress support the Lobbyists of Israel with US tax monies paying de rent, shoe laces & tooth paste of the soldiery & all expansionist policies of Israel for their unilateral power in the Levant & ME. It’s working & will continue for a time.Let’s hope that BDS will too. Ultimately, you can’t Boycott boycott, as Mr. Boycott finally realized being run out of Ireland.