If Your Country Were Committing War Crimes Would You Want to Know?

That is a question one might pose to people who are celebrating the arrest of Julian Assange.

The arrest of WikiLeakers founder Julian Assange on April 11 has been met with celebration by politicians and media figures and with howls of laughter from late-night comics. 

Here’s Hillary Clinton’s response:

Here is The Daily Show‘s host Trevor Noah’s take:

A close reading of both the indictment and the criminal complaint against Assange show that journalism is indeed being criminalized. Assange is accused merely of trying to help Chelsea Manning, his source, to hide her identity, not hack into a computer Manning already had legal access to, as the indictment and complaint make plain. It was the administration Clinton belonged to that decided, with the exact same evidence, not to indict Assange because it crossed the red line into making journalism a crime. 

Legions of liberals and conservatives alike are acting on received information that Assange is their enemy.  Lost in the media maelstrom is what WikiLeaks is all about.  Namely, the work it has done  over the past 13 years.  It’s no accident that that isn’t being mentioned.  

A question one can put to the vast majority who are smiling about Assange being behind bars is this: “If your country were committing war crimes would you want to know?”  If they answer, “Yes,” then tell them that that is what Julian Assange has done. And that’s why his asylum rights were violated and he was thrown in jail.  

And then tell them to read Consortium News for the most comprehensive, factual coverage of the Assange case.  If you would like it to continue, please support Consortium News during our annual Spring Fundraising Drive.  


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Thank you!    And then show them this video:

69 comments for “If Your Country Were Committing War Crimes Would You Want to Know?

  1. John Kesich
    April 26, 2019 at 17:21

    Did the Obama administration decide not to cross the red line of criminalizing journalism or did they merely decide that PR work – which ended up taking the form of the bogus Russiagate scandal – was needed to make the US public accept it?

    If the former, why continue to keep sealed indictments ready for when the time was right?

  2. Jimmy G
    April 21, 2019 at 10:55

    Echos of the Democratic Party applauding the Pentagon Papers are hardly audible for the cheering of
    Julian A’s extradition. Proof that nothing has changed, the Democratic Party still wants to make war while condemning their “loyal opposition” of the same. Two sides of the same dirty coin. Con dinero, baile el perro.

  3. April 19, 2019 at 16:38

    Is there any other word for that than Evil. Pure unadulterated evil. And to think that this was all started on a bunch of lies. The only justice is going to be when Americans are subjected to the same kind of actions inside their own country. I can assure you that there will not be any sympathy coming from this direction when that happens.

  4. Abe
    April 17, 2019 at 22:24

    Media Condemns Julian Assange For Reckless Exposure Of How They Could Be Spending Their Time

    In the wake of the WikiLeaks founder’s arrest by British authorities on behalf of the U.S. for charges stemming from the publication of classified military documents in 2010, members of the American media condemned Julian Assange Friday for the reckless exposure of how they could be spending their time. “We denounce Julian Assange in the strongest possible terms for his negligence in publicly demonstrating the kinds of work journalists could actually be doing to investigate government malfeasance and hold the powerful accountable,” said Washington Post editorial page editor Fred Hiatt, speaking on behalf of many of the leading members of the media who castigated Assange for never once considering the harm that bringing rampant government criminality to light no matter the consequences could do to other news publications’ reputations. “It’s abundantly clear that Mr. Assange was focused on exposing documented evidence of U.S. war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan without so much as a thought for the journalists who faithfully parroted the U.S. military’s talking points when we could have been investigating information that ran contrary to that narrative—does he realize how that makes us look? The fact that he’d just publish information vital to the public interest from primary sources exactly as it was written instead of working with government officials to omit the most damaging parts in exchange for keeping access channels open is simply beyond the pale. The fact that the American public now knows what we’re actually doing day to day is incredibly harmful to this nation.” Media industry leaders did, however, admit that they could probably stand to go easier on Assange where the sexual assault allegations made against him were concerned.


  5. Abe
    April 17, 2019 at 22:10

    “Democratic Party bigwigs are celebrating the arrest of the Wikileaks founder in London and the request of Donald Trump’s Justice Department for his extradition to the U.S. According to Senators Chuck Schumer, Mark Warner, and Joe Manchin – and, of course, ex-Senator Hilary Clinton – Assange deserves to be punished severely for plotting with Chelsea Manning to obtain and release classified military information, and for allegedly helping the Russians to influence the election of 2016. These are War Democrats, of course, who never met a defense corporation or armed intervention that they didn’t like. One is not surprised to hear them howling for revenge against the ‘traitor’ who revealed American war crimes to the world.

    “Democrats calling themselves progressives are more inclined to defend Assange – sort of – on the ground that his imminent prosecution represents an attack on journalistic freedom that may make it difficult for the media to publish classified documents like those contained in the Pentagon Papers. More legalistic progressives aren’t so sure about this, since they consider publishing classified info OK so long as it has been “sanitized” to avoid exposing intelligence agents, but obtaining the info by hacking into a government computer not ok: i.e., a crime.

    “What neither camp wants to talk about, however, is whether it’s ok to break securities laws in order to expose the American Empire’s war plans, errors, and misdeeds.

    “[…] if you don’t want to admit that the empire is evil (or even that it exists), you talk about national security or journalistic freedom or something. Anything but imperialist warmaking.”

    Julian and Martin: Reflections on the Arrest of Assange
    By Richard Rubenstein

    • Abe
      April 18, 2019 at 02:03

      That pseudo-left barnacle from Vermont, “Enough of the emails” Bernie, who has hardly ever met a defense corporation or armed intervention that he didn’t like, has been way too busy being interviewed by Fox News to comment on such trivial matters.

      Assange and Wikileaks exposed “quite naked conspiracies against Bernie Sanders” during the 2016 Democratic Party presidential primaries

      Assange is feelin’ the bern.

    • OlyaPola
      April 18, 2019 at 04:37

      “Democratic Party bigwigs are celebrating”

      Premature ejaculations often disappoint.

  6. boxerwar
    April 17, 2019 at 20:54

    “If Your Country Were Committing War Crimes Would You Want to Know?”

    Our exceptionalist nation does not ever commit war crimes; hense, the attribution, “Someone Did Something” is, as it were, a ghastly affront to glittering Stars and Stripes and the glowing ‘beacon-on-the-hill’ of “God Bless America” – iconistic altruism and devotion to “World Peace and Security”.

    We all ought to recognize and know the our rich friends and co-conspiritors , the Saudi’s were equal partners in Cheney & Oil Company (and others) plan to unleash Horrific and Brutal All – Engulfing warfare in the Middle East — WITH THE CLEARLY EXPRESSED OBJECT OF … wait for it … OPENING MARKETS !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Condolesa Rice openly declared; “What We See Now Are The BIRTH PANGS Of A NEW MIDDLE EAST !!!

    The Un-Godly Slaughter taking place in Poor as Shit YEMEN, as We, the USA partner equally in the slaughter, immolation and decapitation of a nation of Poverty Stricken Human Beings — … — partner equally / With the self-same Saudi Monarchs who flew, dispassionately, with GWB’s Blessings, back home to their Kingdom of Royalty and subjugation worthless subjects.

    WAR CRIMES ? ? ?

    “Someone did Something”
    ought to be The Wake-Up Call.

    “If Your Country Were Committing
    War Crimes Would You Want to Know?”

    • boxerwar
      April 17, 2019 at 21:15


      “If Your Country Were CommittingWar Crimes Would You Want to Know?”

    • April 20, 2019 at 12:47

      The vast majority of Americans DON’T want to know about war crimes—they DONT even want to know about the SEVEN countries the U.S> is OVERTLY bombing. As is recognized over & oer, “foreign policy is NOT a priority issue for 2020 Presidential candidates”. The irony is that—as Rev. martin Luther King Jr. observed 52 years ago in his APRIL 4, 1967 “Beyond Vietnam speech at Riverside Church, NYC, DOMESTIC needs are ROBBED for U.S. MILITARISM.
      Finally, sadder still, it’s a PARTISAN view to celebrate the arrest of Assange by CLINTON SUPPORTERS–who are scapegoating Assange for her 2016 defeat. Seems to me that the VOTERS had a RIGHT to see BOTH Hillary’s Wall St. speeches & to KNOW Trump was negotiating his TRUMP TOWER MOSCOW deal. Rather than blame Assange (or Russian Facebook Memes) for Trump’s victory, Democrats would do far better to ask themselves: WHY is it that THEIR party has LOST so many VOTERS IN THE LAST 15 TO 20 YEARS? I’d say you can sum it with BILL CLINTON say8ng at the creation of the Democratic leadership Council, that “The Republicans shouldn’t have the monopoly on corporate campaign support. Democrats have to simply become more BUSINESS FRIENDLY.” Using Labor Unions as an ATM & the Black community for GOTV finally wore thin.
      I wish Hillary & Bill Clinton would GO HOME to their $*M mansion in the woods & STFU. We’ve already heard more than enough from them.

  7. jmg
    April 17, 2019 at 17:32

    Could what they are saying be true?:

    “When exposing a crime is treated as committing a crime,
    you are being ruled by criminals.”

    • Pat murphy
      April 18, 2019 at 19:00


  8. Susan
    April 17, 2019 at 15:23

    Certainly I would want to be able to know and information should be shared freely if atrocities take place in our name.

  9. Eddie
    April 17, 2019 at 13:40

    I’ve never heard of this twit Trevor Noah. I took my television to the curb years ago because of the horrible programing and nonstop corporate lies. Based on this sketch the content on the boob tube has nose dived even further.

    • Frederike
      April 17, 2019 at 21:21

      Eddie, I have never heard of this twit, Trevor Noah, either. How is it possible that such imbeciles are running a daily show? Just looking at his silly visage tells me his level of “intelligence”. The arrogance and the pride in ignorance of the participants in this daily show is embarrassing . The commentators are easily matching their level of wit to our supreme leader, the twittering twit.

  10. Charles Seifried
    April 17, 2019 at 12:45

    Yes, it is very important to me to know this information. Having my tax dollars going to our government and seeing this criminal behavior makes me mad as hell. We have become a criminal nation if we do this to other human beings. I sure am tired of hearing us accuse other countries of Human Rights Issues. The hypocrisy is just disgusting.

  11. Cheryl Parker
    April 17, 2019 at 12:28

    This is what should be aired on the t.v. during the news hour. This is how the American taxpayer allows their government to spend their taxes. This is the military sitting in safety killing as though it’s a video game. This is how terrorism grows. This is American arrogant ignorance. This is disgraceful!

  12. Doggrotter
    April 17, 2019 at 11:42

    Trevor Noah, well at least he describes himself as a comedian

  13. Zhu
    April 17, 2019 at 02:26

    Generally they make dumb excuses. Often the same ones, as if there were rhetoric school they all attend.

    • Antiwar7
      April 17, 2019 at 11:10

      I’d like to know. And I do know: it _is_ commiting war crimes, every fricking day! Including the crime of aggression. Kind of inevitable when one is military intervening in God knows how many countries all the time. Often without the permission of the local government, and almost always against the wishes of the majority of the local populace.

      And we’re the ones paying for it.

      A war of choice should be recognized as always being evil, even more evil than a rape of choice.

    • Sam F
      April 17, 2019 at 12:33

      They do attend a school of rhetoric, which requires conformity to the narrative of their tribe, on pain of social or economic exclusion. The tribe may be national, corporate, religious, ethnic, regional, wherever there are such fences dividing humanity. All create social or economic dependency, causing fear of criticizing tribal leadership, which is exploited by tribal demagogues to demand power. For that purpose the tyrants need to create external enemies of the tribe, to demand tribal power and accuse their opponents of disloyalty, demanding their sacrifice to the tribal gods/totems as a threat against their own constituents. The US failed its course in western civilization and the Enlightenment after WWII, when the economic powers consolidated their control over mass media. Welcome to the Animal Farm. Credits to Aristotle’s Politics, no longer in the western syllabus.

  14. Tom
    April 16, 2019 at 23:05

    We know that Bush lied the world into Iraq and he not only walked away from his crimes but is now a darling of the democrats.

    Even when we know crimes were committed there is no justice.In fact proved liars and torture enthusiasts Brennan and Clapper and Haden all were given jobs at CNN and MSNBC.

    How’s that for accountability!

    • Zhu
      April 17, 2019 at 02:31

      Johnson and Nixon. Got off, too

      • bostonblackie
        April 17, 2019 at 14:28

        As did Obama, Bush 1, Carter, Eisenhower, Truman and Kennedy!

        • Tom
          April 17, 2019 at 18:25

          To be fair Kennedy tried to pull us out of Vietnam and was murdered.Dont think that went unnoticed

      • Tom
        April 17, 2019 at 18:24

        Nixon, Johnson ,Reagan all war criminals.

        Obama let the bush criminals walk and continued their crimes and agenda.

        Eisenhower warned us.

  15. Buck Turgeson
    April 16, 2019 at 22:47

    I believe there is a slight misrepresentation in this article. Concerning the password, it states that Manning already had access to the computer. But, there can be different levels of access. I haven’t studied the published chats in the indictment, but IIRC Manning states that he (at the time) was reaching the limit of what he could leak. Manning of course knew his own password, thus no help needed in cracking it. In such an organization, user names are usually predictable. For example, Col Jack D Ripper could be “jripper” and Maj Bat Guano could be “bguano” following the same pattern. Thus, it appears possible that Manning wanted help in cracking a password for a person who he (at the time) knew had larger access to they system. Also, IIRC, the chats said that whomever Manning was chatting with said they could not help him. Manning was, again IIRC, responsible for the large dump of Iraq war information, which largely consisted of routine reports from Iraq. Stuff like which unit was manning a checkpoint in which highway and what they reported. Along with of course the infamous video linked in this article. Still, it all seems like the sort of stuff that a Private might have access to, with the Captain having access to more, which apparently Manning never could access.

    • Joe Lauria
      April 16, 2019 at 22:57

      There is no indication in the indictment or complaint that Manning was accessing information she did not have clearance for. Plus the attempt to use the admin user id and password apparently was unsuccessful.

    • Joe Lauria
      April 16, 2019 at 23:01

      She did not just have access to mundane reports. She had a “Top Secret” clearance. That is the highest clearance possible. She had access to everything. The attempt was merely to try to hide her identity.

      • David G
        April 17, 2019 at 01:17

        Gen. Turgeson’s characterization of the secrecy level of the documents transmitted by Manning is not precise, but Joe Lauria’s reply may lead some to think that “top secret”-classified documents were involved, and that would be false.

        As reported by The Nation in 2013:

        “It is true that Pfc. Manning did enjoy top-secret security clearance, a distinction he shared with the 1.4 million other people who are eligible for Top Secret security clearance. (And how, by the way, can any secret accessible by a population the size of all of Vermont and North Dakota together, a group larger than the population of Washington, DC, itself, be a secret?) It so happens that not a single one of the documents that Pfc. Manning declassified was ‘top secret’ status. (By contrast, every last one of the thousands of documents comprising the Pentagon Papers was Top Secret, yet many of Manning’s critics claim to love Daniel Ellsberg.) More than half of the diplomatic cables are not classified in any way, and neither was the infamous helicopter gunsight video that shows an Apache gunship slaughtering a dozen Iraqis, including two Reuters news agency employees.”

        • anon4d2
          April 17, 2019 at 12:23

          There are several classification levels above “top secret” that restrict access on a specific need-to-know basis or to specific persons, but this material does not appear to be of that secrecy. The Vault 7 materials must have been well known to thousands of developers, managers, and secretaries, and some (such as faking the origins of internet packets to seem that they came from Russia) was open-source, black market, or developed and in use elsewhere (as in Ukraine), so necessarily not secret.

          • OlyaPola
            April 18, 2019 at 07:21

            ““secret” top or otherwise.

            Words are catalysts of connotations and indicators of perception.

            Words are posited as having interacting meaning through a measure of “constancy/stasis”

            However in practice “secret” is a function of time whose denial requires resort to belief to bridge doubt to attain comfort/certainty, and its displacement the lets-move-onism of increasing linear dosages of greater, even more greater, wonderfully more greater, even more wonderfully more greater, non of which change that “secret” is a function of time.

      • OlyaPola
        April 24, 2019 at 05:28

        ““Top Secret” clearance. That is the highest clearance possible.”

        Perhaps it would be wise to modify your assertion to read:

        “That was the highest clearance possible for a person in her role with her level of experience”.

        There are spectra of higher clearance levels than “Top Secret” in some organisations, although in practice as happened with the delegation of launch authority the classifications became more porous through time.

  16. Eddie S
    April 16, 2019 at 22:46

    I believe that most US citizens —- like the ‘good Germans’ in WWII and probably all native imperial citizens— studiously ignore virtually all reports or even hints of war-crimes by their ‘mother country’. Nowadays especially, you really have to intentionally avert your gaze not to get a ‘strong hint’ that the US military is not traveling around the world on benevolent peace missions. Especially the 2003 Iraq War-crime should have been a clear signal..

  17. April 16, 2019 at 22:36

    The question that should be asked is if your country were committing war crimes would you NOT want to know?

  18. Who's that skunknail!
    April 16, 2019 at 22:31

    American Exceptionalism is a nationalist cult and its members are brainwashed from birth.

    • Antiwar7
      April 17, 2019 at 11:00

      You got that right. Every day in school, saying a prayer to a flag? And how can anyone with a straight face claim the US on the best country in the world when they know so little of any other countries?

      • OlyaPola
        April 18, 2019 at 04:44

        “Every day in school, saying a prayer to a flag?”

        Why restrict yourself unnecessasarily.

        For example:

        Pledging alleigance to the wall.

        We the people hold these truths to be self-evident.

        In God we trust.

        The one-liners are legion, possibly deserving of a song.


  19. jose
    April 16, 2019 at 21:12

    I most definitively would like to know if my country is committing war crimes and deceiving us about it. If history teaches us something, is not to trust our own government.

  20. Nathan Mulcahy
    April 16, 2019 at 20:52

    I don’t know about other countries, but Americans in generally don’t want to know, especially the liberal/liberturd/progressive/Dem or whatever title they use.

    • OlyaPola
      April 18, 2019 at 07:10

      “Americans in generally don’t want to know”

      If a pertinent consideration is “How to drown a drowning man with the minimum of blowback?” then blowback can be minimised when others including opponents don’t want to know given that some wandering in war zones tend not to enjoy continued well being and sometimes well, being.

      Such are facilitated by understanding that the benefits of dumbing down don’t accrure solely to those engaged in dumbing down.

  21. Drew Hunkins
    April 16, 2019 at 19:30

    Late night comedy and other cable comedy shows have become unbearable in the midst of Russiagate, Trump derangement syndrome, and now Assange. These hosts and writers are of course experts at mockery, hyperbole and ridicule so they’re very effective propagandists for power since they appear to be irreverent at times. And admittedly, sometimes they do indeed hit the bulls-eye, but all too often over the past four years it’s been nauseatingly predictable.

    • Eddie S
      April 16, 2019 at 22:07

      Yeah, I just avoid their shows nowadays. And much like Limbaugh does, when confronted with evidence of the errors or major inconsistencies in some of their ‘arguments’, they’ll just make a joke or a funny-face, fall-back on “it’s just a comedy show”and then change the subject. They’re entertainers first and semi-serious political humanitarian thinkers/commenters 2nd or 3rd. (ie; recall Jon Stewart’s big DC gathering that just turned out to be little-more than a lame party that you’d sneak out the backdoor on)

      • April 17, 2019 at 10:23

        Excellent points Eddie S!

    • April 19, 2019 at 17:03

      Well thats what it is isn`t it? A propaganda apparatus designed to keep the citizen`s eye averted from the running sore that is the American Government. The effort is worthy of North Korea and the Old Soviet Union. Although over the last decade or so, the propaganda effort from inside the USA is so primitive ( it does not need to be sophisticated given the level of political awareness in the US.) as to make the Soviet and North Korean brand look polished and modern indeed. The American Government just tags any and all it`s wrong doings with the description ( american Exceptionalism) and Americans just shrug their shoulders and carry on as if nothing has happened.

  22. April 16, 2019 at 18:52

    October 11, 2017
    Do We Even Realize What “Our Leaders” Are Doing?

  23. KiwiAntz
    April 16, 2019 at 18:26

    Pete your American Govt doesn’t need your Tax dollars to finance the US Empires endless Wars? The entire charade is funded by the Federal Reserve Central Bank, literally printing money out of thin air via the Petrodollar recycling system! The US Tax dollars take do not even cover things such as Medicare, Medicaid, Infrastructure etc with trillion dollar deficits & Trumps ludicrous Tax cuts has exacerbated the situation? I suggest you read a Book by a Economist called Michael Hudson who wrote about this very subject on how America funds its Wars, its called SuperImperialism! China, Russia & other Countries are on a Gold buying spree thanks to Trump weaponising the US Dollar & coming to the realisation that this currency is totally worthless, not backed by anything but thin air & Saudi’s pricing of Oil in US dollars!

    • OlyaPola
      April 17, 2019 at 05:03

      “Trump weaponising the US Dollar”

      The US dollar was “weaponised” from inception,but the word “weaponised” came into fashion when Mr. Nixon and associates increased the assay of value based on belief – a clarification of “In god we trust” as some understood in the 1970’s, facilitated by detente on the bases of spheres of influence and rendered necessary after being defeated by the Vietnamese in what is known as “The American War”.

  24. ML
    April 16, 2019 at 18:26

    I agree, mike k. I have found most of our “liberal friends” either don’t know or don’t care enough to learn more. I often end up feeling like it’s a lost cause trying to tell them about it. Until the bombs start falling on us, they aren’t about to start caring either. It is too distant and frankly, they’d rather push the ignore button and keep coma-walking through their American lives. I often feel like I belong in another universe or at least another country where citizens understand how corrupt and martial is American Empire. I wondered the other day if any country might accept for asylum, any of us Americans who feel like we do. Strangers in a strange land- our very own.

    • Zhu
      April 17, 2019 at 02:53

      I know how you feel. Informally, I’ve emigrated to China. PR China’s got plenty of problems & flaws, but they are not US ones. Also, the government is quite disorganized & ordinary people are not at all obedient.

  25. April 16, 2019 at 17:06

    I’ve talked to other Americans, and I can assure you that those I’ve spoken to would prefer the war crimes be brushed under the mat. Because, you know, “it makes us all look bad.”

    • AnneR
      April 17, 2019 at 09:35

      Indeed. Most of the so-called “liberal,” “left,” “progressive (still don’t know what that term really means),” well-educated friends of my late husband (present on his FB page) prefer not to really examine, know what their country is actually doing beyond its borders. They are mainly consumed with TDS (yes he’s a grotesque and liar and racist etc – but then so are the vast majority of the politicos, including HRC, he’s just more open about it), the ND fire (which to my warped view is not a tragedy – it’s just a building; tragedies are FUKUS supplying – for $$$ – military materiel and support to Saudia in order to kill as many Houthi Yemenis, and any others, as they can, what Israel continues, since 1947, to get away with in its brutal, violent, criminal treatment of Palestinians the rightful occupants of the land, the creation of ISIS in the wake of FUKUS et al’s invasion of Iraq…etc., etc.,), identity politics and so on and on.

      And yes it would seem that (like Brits now and in the past) Americans cannot really cope with the notion that, Yes, “we really are like that,” not the “exceptionals” (unless one means exceptionally arrogant, hypocritical, violent worshippers of Mammon *and* Moloch) our politicos, corporate capitalists and bourgeoisie like to pretend they (we – so long as not Strumpet supporters) are.

      However the rest of the world has a fair idea about the US and its use of violence against all “lesser nations” to further its (1%ers) ends. Assange was doing this country a favor, but the Demrat groupies will not admit to that. Even assuming they pay any attention to anything beyond their latest “smart” device, electric car and PC pretensions. Their smugness and complacency regarding what the US is doing and has been doing in the world and to it for over a century, but especially since WWII, doesn’t bother or interest them overly much. It doesn’t affect them.

      And they are very willing sponges for the MSM spouted propaganda with regard to the Russians did ‘it”, Assange is a “Russian” tool (they expect, apparently, him to reveal the [non-existent] connections between him, the Russians and the 2016 debacle for HRC).

      • lexx
        April 17, 2019 at 14:01

        and you are saying the republican/conservatives are different ? LOL thy are the ones most likely to worship the flag and suffer from US exceptionalism syndrome
        are you trying to sell a slightly used bridge?

        • April 17, 2019 at 19:42

          Everyone on this site should be well aware that, that foreign policy is not determined in any meaningful way by the party in power. The Deep State runs the overseas show and presidents of both parties just go along with it. Trump and Obama were no exceptions. Bickering on this point between party supporters is simply a wasteful distraction.

  26. mike k
    April 16, 2019 at 16:49

    The fact is whatever most Americans might respond to your question, they really don’t want to know about their country’s crimes, and avoid paying any attention to that reality at all. Their attitude is really ‘who cares’. Most of us don’t care. If we did, then we would make the effort to find out what our leaders are really up to. But we are more comfortable not knowing. And if you keep asking questions like that, you will find your former friends avoiding you.

    • LJ
      April 16, 2019 at 17:32

      You are right. Humans are pretty bad and always have been.It’s not just US but really who would want their kids to study at the School of the Americas or be trained to be a Jason Bourne or Ivana Humpalot?Patriots? And what kind of people would want to be a politician, if they were informed of the atrocities, just so they can keep getting in front of the cameras and lying and saying how great it all is? What kind of creep would want to be a Senator or a President if they were honest and moral? Just follow orders and keep the head down. Looking at mirrors is for combing of the hair, applying make-up and shaving. Basically for appearances and we all like pretty things and are repulsed by the ugly except when we exercise our Constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.

    • OlyaPola
      April 17, 2019 at 04:46

      “Their attitude is really ‘who cares’.”

      Like many you appear to view this as a disadvantage.

      Essentially you ingest two core beliefs/practices of the opponents; the opponents including “the people in majority”, but often misrepresented as not including “the people in majority” thereby facilitating opportunities for “the people in majority” to deny complicity whilst reenforcing the agency of others, not restricted to the opponents.

      The two core beliefs/practices.

      1. That the benefits of “dumbing down” accrue solely to the opponents.

      2. That the people caring is of fundamental significance and requirement: a reiteration of the expectitionalist practice of seeking to assign significance to themselves which others do not assign to them.

      Both beliefs not only re-enforce one another in practice but in wider interaction afford more opportunities of transcending opponents.

      Another illustration of ingestion is in the title of the thread :

      “If your country were committing war crimes would you want to know” where action is restricted to “wanting to know” where action is restricted within the brain of the “wanter”, thereby obfuscating various options including but not restricted to “effort to achieve knowledge (the subliminal option presumably being restricted to reading something from somewhere)” or even “acting in ways not restricted to reading contingent upon knowing that “your country” was/is committing war crimes.

      “And if you keep asking questions like that, you will find your former friends avoiding you.”

      This illustrates another ingestion of the opponents’ beliefs : the advantages and need to be liked that when disappointed tends to lead to various forms of coercion on the part of the disappointed.

      Thank you for your thumbnail of some aspects contained in the petri dish of the opponents’ culture – a continuing/developing land of opportunity.

      • DW Bartoo
        April 17, 2019 at 09:43


        I do read your comments and do try to make sense of what often seems to me impenetrable jargon.

        Perhaps, were you to share your background and the intended purpose of your suggestions, we might better comprehend just what it is that you desire to provide us in terms of understanding.

        With this comment, which you have placed before us, I wonder if you are really suggesting that we humans now face an ineluctable situation?

        Were we, a group of us happily walking through a forest and, upon entering a glade, set upon by a several wild boar, I suspect those who might exclaim, “Well, I just don’t care”, or were reluctant to perceive a threat of any sort, might just come to regret such nonchalance.

        Perhaps, as you seem to imply, many might suffer from “learned helplessness”, which term you will recall was used by the psychologists, Mitchell and Jesson, as the title for the torture program they set up and supervised.

        The “dumbing down”, however accidentally you might perceive that outcome to be, in terms of serving the interests of those who seek to dominate and control, to pillage, plunder, and extract, does admirably seem to benefit the few at the expense of the many, a huge number of which have, in fact become convinced either that they can do nothing to affect or change what is going on as they’ve not the levers to shift policy or brute force.

        Still yet others are perfectly willing to believe cultural myths of superiority or racial inferiority, or simply that they do not know as much as the lionized elite, or the strong men who wield power and, therefore, are content to meekly tag along barking happily at the heels of the conquering heroes.

        It may not be wild boar that we face,

        But it is, I consider, consequence of far graver immensity and destruction, be it warfare that, all too easily, by intent or accident, blossom into the ten or twelve massive mushroom clouds that could spell the end of much of life on the planet, ushering in a new glacial age, or be it the ruthless and reckless destruction of the capacity of the web of life to support human existence by cooking most life off the planet, not to mention, of course, ongoing human destruction of the habitants necessary to other life forms, all done merely for money and the cheap ambition of wealth to be used to lord it over the dumbed-down and deplorably unmeritorious mmultitudes who, as “useless eaters” merely clutter up the landscape and offend the eyes of those well-born into or newly hoisted, through the “good” virtue of greed.

        Perhaps, OlyaPola, you are saying much the same thing?

        Or, perhaps, you see little that truly concerns you as being worthy of the undivided attention of a humanity sorely abused and very deliberately confused?

        • OlyaPola
          April 17, 2019 at 14:29

          “The “dumbing down”, however accidentally you might perceive that outcome to be, in terms of serving the interests of those who seek to dominate and control, to pillage, plunder, and extract, does admirably seem to benefit the few at the expense of the many, a huge number of which have, in fact become convinced either that they can do nothing to affect or change what is going on as they’ve not the levers to shift policy or brute force.”

          Dumbing down’s benefits do not solely serve those who seek to dominate and control, nor do the “benefits” of torture, but belief that they do limits perceptions of alternatives and agency in implementing them.

          Those who believe that the benefits of dumbing down and torture accrue solely to them are productions of their own attempts at dumbing down thereby facilitating opportunities for their transcendence informed by the question: how to drown a drowning man with the minimum of blowback? including minimising resort to nuclear weapons as many practitioners have been informed by and sought to practice since at least 1984.

          These “hypotheses” were shared to facilitate testing of these hypotheses and implemtation of strategies derived therefrom for those so minded in the context of “surveillance states”.

          • DW Bartoo
            April 17, 2019 at 16:08

            So, OlyaPola, rather than making even the slightest effort to make clear who really might benefit from the “dumbing down”, beyond those profiting from the status quo, you simply restate your claim that there are other beneficiaries and that those who do not grasp that, to you all too obvious reality, are themselves “dumbing down”.

            Is that your contention?

            Fortunately, you are not “dumbed down” and can clearly discern that whole vistas of comprehension and vast areas of action are open to what?

            To clarity?

            To broad understanding?

            You did not even bother to respond to the real question.

            I shall repeat it.

            Do you, consider that humanity is facing an ineluctable situation?

            Let me define that term:

            It means “against which it is useless to struggle”.

            Have you a smartened up answer to that question?

          • OlyaPola
            April 17, 2019 at 18:59

            RE “DW Bartoo
            April 17, 2019 at 16:08

            “So, OlyaPola, rather than making even the slightest effort to make clear..”

            “These “hypotheses” were shared to facilitate testing of these hypotheses and implemtation of strategies derived therefrom for those so minded in the context of “surveillance states”.”

            The surveillance state is an opportunity to share widely not restricted to an initial entry portal.

            You may believe that something is not clear instead of realising that it may be not clear to you or some others through a specific entry portal but this should not be conflated with not being clear to some others through this entry portal, or others through subsequent portals accessed via this specific entry portal.

            The content and register of OlyaPola
            April 17, 2019 at 04:46 was a function of this understanding of opportunities facilitated by the “surveillance state” and an example of how the benefits of “dumbing down” do not accrue solely to those who seek doubling down.

            The hypotheses outlined in OlyaPola
            April 17, 2019 at 04:46 contained greater levels of connotation/nuance in regard to ” some aspects contained in the petri dish of the opponents’ culture – a continuing/developing land of opportunity.” that may have become more apparent if so minded to act upon the invitation that “These “hypotheses” were shared to facilitate testing of these hypotheses and implemtation of strategies derived therefrom for those so minded in the context of “surveillance states” OlyaPola
            April 17, 2019 at 14:29 refers.

            However it would appear that you reflect a subject/object perhaps belief/rote school of pedagogy expecting to be spoon fed rather than test the hypotheses yet another example of how the benefits of doubling down do not accrue solely to those seeking to double down whether with greater assay of connotation/nuance or a lesser assay of connotation/nuance.

            As an indulgence not in this instance reflecting Mr. Clinton’s policy of 3 strikes and you’re out, I have placed a response to your comment in the European Parliament debate in further illustration of how the benefits of dumbing down do not solely accrue to those seeking to dumb down, for others to test if so minded since such has wide application in practice even if not apparent to you and others.

            Thank you for your most recent thumbnail of some aspects contained in the petri dish of the opponents’ culture – a continuing/developing land of opportunity and wonders where expectations often diverge from outcomes often facilitating resort to belief to bridge doubt to attain comfort/confirmation.

            Enjoy your journey.

        • LJ
          April 17, 2019 at 15:14

          OlyaPola and DW Bartoo: A small Goldfinch alights on a branch on a bush outside my window. How do I know that I’m not dreaming? I Kant figure it out? Deja vu all over again. Peace.

          • DW Bartoo
            April 17, 2019 at 21:17

            Your gentle wisdom, LJ, is much appreciated.

            Perhaps, the Goldfinch and the tree upholding the branch upon which the wee yellow feathered biped has alighted, both ponder a very similar question.


          • OlyaPola
            April 18, 2019 at 05:00

            “How do I know that I’m not dreaming?”

            Outcomes are functions of framing and knowledge a lateral process of questions.

            One entry question amongst many could be:

            Does a gold fish swimming in a bowl perceive that her/his environment is bound by transparent constraints?

            which could facilitate lateral trajectories and diffusions/implementations/modulations of how to questions if not reliant on Kant thereby facilitating can’t and consequent swimming in circles in search of peace.

          • LJ
            April 18, 2019 at 21:37

            Olya you are clever, Hope you get lucky this Spring


          • OlyaPola
            April 24, 2019 at 06:03


            April 18, 2019 at 21:37

            Seems most of the traffic has moved on.

            There are other dances of the day and translation is a catalyst of connotations and obfuscations like retaining “originals”.

            The illusions of Un pueblo unido facilitated 911, Novo Tempo facilitated re-integration and Corsario facilitated a level of deflection:


            but all data-streams have utility.

            Enjoy your journey trying to minimise “luck” and Kant.


          • OlyaPola
            April 24, 2019 at 06:36

            “The illusions of Un pueblo unido facilitated 911, Novo Tempo re-integration and Corsario a level of deflection:”

            but not only.


            A some sometimes note in the banya “Intercourse is a process which some translate differently”.

    • Kiwiantz
      April 17, 2019 at 08:43

      Mike, your comments made me think about a line from the movie “Catch me if you can” starring Leo DiCaprio as Frank Abagnale Jr. along with his FBI handler played by Tom Hanks as Carl Hanratty? Carl catches Frank at the airport as Frank attempts to impersonate a pilot one last time? Carl says to Frank, I’m going to let you fly tonite because look, no ones chasing you & Frank says something like, I don’t understand, to which Carl replies ” SURE YOU DO, SOMETIMES ITS EASIER LIVING THE LIE!” That line really sums up what Americans & most people believe I guess? Just go along with the rest of the Herd & follow the path of least resistance because it’s easier to live with the lies rather than having to confront them & with all the ramifications that this knowledge entails with it’s implications & responsibilities that might test your conscience & moral compass, to either keep quiet or doing the right thing by exposing the lies & liars!

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