Exclusive: In House testimony, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland blamed Russia and ethnic-Russian rebels for last summer’s shoot-down of MH-17 over Ukraine, but the U.S. government has not substantiated that charge. So, did Nuland mislead Congress or just play a propaganda game, asks Robert Parry.
By Robert Parry
An early skill learned by Official Washington’s neoconservatives, when they were cutting their teeth inside the U.S. government in the 1980s, was how to frame their arguments in the most propagandistic way, so anyone who dared to disagree with any aspect of the presentation seemed unpatriotic or crazy.
During my years at The Associated Press and Newsweek, I dealt with a number of now prominent neocons who were just starting out and mastering these techniques at the knee of top CIA psychological warfare specialist Walter Raymond Jr., who had been transferred to President Ronald Reagan’s National Security Council staff where Raymond oversaw inter-agency task forces that pushed Reagan’s hard-line agenda in Central America and elsewhere. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “The Victory of ‘Perception Management.’”]
Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland, who pushed for the Ukraine coup and helped pick the post-coup leaders.
One of those quick learners was Robert Kagan, who was then a protégé of Assistant Secretary of State Elliott Abrams. Kagan got his first big chance when he became director of the State Department’s public diplomacy office for Latin America, a key outlet for Raymond’s propaganda schemes.
Though always personable in his dealings with me, Kagan grew frustrated when I wouldn’t swallow the propaganda that I was being fed. At one point, Kagan warned me that I might have to be “controversialized,” i.e. targeted for public attack by Reagan’s right-wing media allies and anti-journalism attack groups, like Accuracy in Media, a process that did indeed occur.
Years later, Kagan emerged as one of America’s top neocons, a co-founder of the Project for the New American Century, which opened in 1998 to advocate for the U.S. invasion of Iraq, ultimately gaining the backing of a large swath of the U.S. national security establishment in support of that bloody endeavor.
Despite the Iraq disaster, Kagan continued to rise in influence, now a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, a columnist at the Washington Post, and someone whose published criticism so alarmed President Barack Obama last year that he invited Kagan to a White House lunch. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Obama’s True Foreign Policy Weakness.”]
Kagan’s Wife’s Coup
But Kagan is perhaps best known these days as the husband of neocon Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland, one of Vice President Dick Cheney’s former advisers and a key architect of last year’s coup in Ukraine, a “regime change” that toppled an elected president and touched off a civil war, which now has become a proxy fight involving nuclear-armed United States and Russia.
In an interview last year with the New York Times, Nuland indicated that she shared her husband’s criticism of President Obama for his hesitancy to use American power more assertively. Referring to Kagan’s public attacks on Obama’s more restrained “realist” foreign policy, Nuland said, “suffice to say that nothing goes out of the house that I don’t think is worthy of his talents. Let’s put it that way.”
But Nuland also seems to have mastered her husband’s skill with propaganda, presenting an extreme version of the situation in Ukraine, such that no one would dare quibble with the details. In prepared testimony to the House Foreign Affairs Committee last week, Nuland even slipped in an accusation blaming Russia for the July 17 shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 though the U.S. government has not presented any proof.
Nuland testified, “In eastern Ukraine, Russia and its separatist puppets unleashed unspeakable violence and pillage; MH-17 was shot down.”
Now, it’s true that if one parses Nuland’s testimony, she’s not exactly saying the Russians or the ethnic Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine shot down the plane. There is a semi-colon between the “unspeakable violence and pillage” and the passive verb structure “MH-17 was shot down.” But anyone seeing her testimony would have understood that the Russians and their “puppets” shot down the plane, killing all 298 people onboard.
When I submitted a formal query to the State Department asking if Nuland’s testimony meant that the U.S. government had developed new evidence that the rebels shot down the plane and that the Russians shared complicity, I received no answer.
Perhaps significantly or perhaps not, Nuland presented similarly phrased testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Tuesday but made no reference to MH-17. So, I submitted a new inquiry asking whether the omission reflected second thoughts by Nuland about making the claim before the House. Again, I have not received a reply.
However, both of Nuland’s appearances place all the blame for the chaos in Ukraine on Russia, including the 6,000 or more deaths. Nuland offered not a single word of self-criticism about how she contributed to these violent events by encouraging last year’s coup, nor did she express the slightest concern about the actions of the coup regime in Kiev, including its dispatch of neo-Nazi militias to carry out “anti-terrorist” and “death squad” operations against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Nuclear War and Clashing Ukraine Narratives.”]
Russia’s Fault
Everything was Russia’s fault or as Nuland phrased it: “This manufactured conflict, controlled by the Kremlin; fueled by Russian tanks and heavy weapons; financed at Russian taxpayers’ expense, has cost the lives of more than 6,000 Ukrainians, but also of hundreds of young Russians sent to fight and die there by the Kremlin, in a war their government denies.”
Nuland was doing her husband proud. As every good propagandist knows, you don’t present events with any gray areas; your side is always perfect and the other side is the epitome of evil. And, today, Nuland faces almost no risk that some mainstream journalist will dare contradict this black-and-white storyline; they simply parrot it.
Besides heaping all the blame on the Russians, Nuland cited in her Senate testimony some of the new “reforms” that the Kiev authorities have just implemented as they build a “free-market state.” She said, “They made tough choices to reduce and cap pension benefits, increase work requirements and phase in a higher retirement age; they passed laws cutting wasteful gas subsidies.”
In other words, many of the “free-market reforms” are aimed at making the hard lives of average Ukrainians even harder by cutting pensions, removing work protections, forcing people to work into their old age and making them pay more for heat during the winter.
Nuland also hailed some of the regime’s stated commitments to fighting corruption. But Kiev seems to have simply installed a new cast of bureaucrats looking to enrich themselves. For instance, Ukraine’s Finance Minister Natalie Jaresko is an expatriate American who before becoming an instant Ukrainian citizen last December ran a U.S. taxpayer-financed investment fund for Ukraine that was drained of money as she engaged in lucrative insider deals, which she has fought to keep secret. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Ukraine’s Finance Minister’s American ‘Values.’”]
Yet, none of these concerns were mentioned in Nuland’s propagandistic testimony to the House and Senate not that any of the committee members or the mainstream press corps seemed to care that they were being spun and even misled. The hearings were mostly opportunities for members of Congress to engage in chest-beating as they demanded that President Obama send U.S. arms to Ukraine for a hot war with Russia.
Regarding the MH-17 disaster, one reason that I was inquisitive about Nuland’s insinuation in her House testimony that the Russians and the ethnic Russian rebels were responsible was that some U.S. intelligence analysts have reached a contrary conclusion, according to a source briefed on their findings. According to that information, the analysts found no proof that the Russians had delivered a BUK anti-aircraft system to the rebels and concluded that the attack was apparently carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military.
After I published that account last summer, the Obama administration went silent about the MH-17 shoot-down, letting stand some initial speculation that had blamed the Russians and the rebels. In the nearly eight months since the tragedy, the U.S. government has failed to make public any intelligence information on the crash. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “The Danger of an MH-17 ‘Cold Case.’”]
So, Nuland may have been a bit duplicitous when she phrased her testimony so that anyone hearing it would jump to the conclusion that the Russians and the rebels were to blame. It’s true she didn’t exactly say so but she surely knew what impression she was leaving.
In that, Nuland appears to have taken a page from the playbook of her husband’s old mentor, Elliott Abrams, who provided misleading testimony to Congress on the Iran-Contra Affair in the 1980s and even though he was convicted of that offense, Abrams was pardoned by President George H.W. Bush and thus was able to return to government last decade to oversee the selling of the Iraq War.
Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s. You can buy his latest book, America’s Stolen Narrative, either in print here or as an e-book (from Amazon and barnesandnoble.com). You also can order Robert Parry’s trilogy on the Bush Family and its connections to various right-wing operatives for only $34. The trilogy includes America’s Stolen Narrative. For details on this offer, click here.
In Kostyantynivka BMD at 14:42 Ukrainian military ran over a woman with two children, killing 8-year-old girl.Informs that the soldiers were drunk, so made a traffic accident.
Victoria is in the unenviable position of selling a ‘silk purse’ to America, when the object in question has all the characteristics of a sow’s ear. But being a person who has her own version of truth and an ability to overlook dissonant reality, Nuland is in a good position and singing a song that the ‘investors’ want to hear. Her BIG probam is that nobody in the USA wants to pony-up the massive cash requirements to resuscitate EUkrainia nor to provide it with a lend lease of modern arms that might well fall into the hands of ‘pro-Russian’ forces, like so much has already done.
The EU might do it, but there is another ‘deal’ that America would need make. America ‘broke’ this one too, and the EU is no dope when it comes to Russia.
Between 1880 and 1920, the fate of the US was sealed when 2 million Noodlesmen and its ilk were shipped in from their ancestral oblasts of Eastern Europe.
The real problem is that the US is deploying 239 missiles in Romania, 409 missiles in Poland and on 32 ships in the Mediterranean. Missile engineer Bob Aldridge-www.plrc.org on the missiles: “Whether they are on ships or land, they are still a necessary component for an unanswerable first strike.” According to Bob Aldridge the US Navy can track and destroy all enemy submarines simultaneously. GPS was made for Minuteman-3 and Trident-2 to be able to hit missile silos accurately. This leads to Launch On Warning=Suicide Guaranteed, probably from 2017. Bloody fools in the Pentagon !!!
Great article. Real education begins only when true motivations are revealed. Only then can one form.
valid conclusions.
For some reason, I find Victoria Nuland’s head to be empty, ignorant, thick, cracked, ludicrous, pathologically ill and diabolical, with no shred of self-dignity what so ever! Is she even human?
We are blind if we only see the US and Israel, not how al Qaeda is adding the grease. [This didn’t post using firefox]
I wish Robert Parry would relate possible similarity between the killing of Boris Nemtsov, the Russian opposition leader with the assassination of Rafic Hariri by al Qaeda to successfully cause chaos. The C Chechnya’s were told Nemtsov was being targeted for anti-Islam cartoons, but Beslan Shavanov committed suicide obviously to prevent from saying more.
Fortunately during the Cold War al Qaeda wasn’t around to fake a Soviet attack on the US and Vise visa.
Let’s stop a new cold war to prevent al Qaeda from attempting in their mind absolute victory. Robert Perry please dig up the details the way you did Rafic Hariri’s assassin.
I wish Robert Parry would relate possible similarity between the killing of Boris Nemtsov, the Russian opposition leader with the assassination of Rafic Hariri by al Qaeda to successfully cause chaos. The C Chechnya’s were told Nemtsov was being targeted for anti-Islam cartoons, but Beslan Shavanov committed suicide obviously to prevent from saying more.
Fortunately during the Cold War al Qaeda wasn’t around to fake a Soviet attack on the US and Vise visa.
Let’s stop a new cold war to prevent al Qaeda from attempting in their mind absolute victory. Robert Perry please dig up the details the way you did Rafic Hariri’s assassin.
I saw the testimony Ms. Nuland gave before the Senators of the Foreign Affairs Committee last week on CSpan. After hearing a number of questions and comments by the Senators of the Foreign Relations committee I was extremely depressed. I have never heard such drivel in all my 84 years. One Senator wanted assurance that we would install a nuclear missile system in the Ukraine, and I well remember what our reaction was when we learned that Soviet Russia was installing missile systems in Cuba. They were so cocksure and oblivious to reality I felt we were being governed by mad men. I mean I came away extremely scared. They were all so unconnected with reality, it was unbelievable, and the Democrat Senators on the committee were as bad as the Republican. They had no understanding of what was going on in the Ukraine! You would think that as Senators they would have some slight understanding but they were all posturing as defenders of freedom and protectors of America from the evil Putin. They were all playing out a role in the morality play that they had created, that had no connection with reality. I mean I am used to baloney from our members of Congress, but this was on another level. Unbelievable!
Hey Robert keep up the good work. I was checking my bookmarked “Project for New American Century” today (it’s been a long time since i visited the site) the website is gone, is there anyway to get an archived copy? I was introducing your website and your books to a friend of mine who is the editor of the “Valley Voice” a bi-weekly paper in the Slocan Valley of British Columbia in Canada. I lent her the four books of yours and was trying to show her the American Century website. Could you e-mail me and let me know how i can get a copy of their manifesto, i consider it the mein kamf of our time…Tom Coombs
http://web.archive.org/web/20060721032858/http://www.newamericancentury.org/
http://web.archive.org/web/20060720043201/http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20060515000000*/http://newamericancentury.org
Here is the planning document that I often claim that evil Dick Cheney had tucked in his armpit the day he walked into his Presidential Office in early 2001. Understanding that Dick Cheney appointed himself as President is critical to understanding everything that’s happened since then.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040228062549/http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
Here is the planning document that I often claim that evil Dick Cheney had tucked in his armpit the day he walked into his Presidential Office in early 2001. Understanding that Dick Cheney appointed himself as President is critical to understanding everything that’s happened since then.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040228062549/http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
I am NOT responsible for the red letters in that post — what’s going on?
Interesting… again my old comments re-appear a couple hours later. Not sure if that’s simply an error, or if it’s in response my comment at 1:49 p.m.
Don’t get too uppity; your B.S. Still smells fresh, even if it got shoveled later in th day.
Don’t get too uppity; your B.S. Still smells fresh, even if it got shoveled later in th day.
Thanks, F.G. Wondering what AP was doing in Kyiv? Working for the CIA? Talk about disinformation campaigns!
So lacking facts or a coherent counterargument, this is how you respond? Kyiv is a relatively international city. And remains that way. Have YOU been there? Or seen anything FIRSTHAND there that you seem to think you know better?
Annonymous/F.G. Sanford.
I was in Kyiv. I witnessed up close what was happening during Euromaidan and the beginnings of Russian interference with the seizure of Crimea and so-called “rebellions” in the East, often lead by outsiders, not locals. And on a daily basis there were constant lies coming from Kremlin media that were visibly false to anyone in Kyiv. Far too many to list in one coment. But it spanned everything from “reports” that armed gangs were shooting at each other an hitting people as the left metro stations (I used metro eveyrday, and it nevery happened). That there were attacks on synagogues and Jews (which never happened… in fact the Jewish community leaders wrote an open letter to Putin teling him that it was not true.) What Russian media said was genuine BS, and clearly deligitimizes their reporting.
What I’ve written is is based on the reality that I saw up clsoe. It is not naive — Ukraine’s new government is far from perfect. They have problems. But it is nothing like Russian media accounts that are lies and even self-contradictory at times.
I doubt Parry has visited Ukraine once since any of the crisis began. And his line of thinking about Ukraine follows the Kremlin narrative without question, without any critical eye. Now that seems like genuine BS.
Nice try. Maybe you also were in Odessa, just outside the Trade Union building holding a Molotov cocktail? Maidan started as a genuine protest movement, but then was hijacked by neo-nazis, oligarchs of Kolomoyski type and American neocons ( have you heard the famous Nuland phone call? Have you seen McCain hugging Nazist Tyahnibok?…) The democratically elected president was chased away by an armed mob, even though the European mediators had guaranteed the end of violence the day before. That is when democracy died in Ukraine. By the look of it it’s never coming back.
Very good, Oleg,
When you lack facts or a coherent counter-argument, just throw out some insults, or baseless accusations. A presidential election and a parliamentary election in which the public calmly voted in moderate leaders is hardly the death of democracy.
I haven’t seen any reasonable argument hence no counterargument is needed. And the unanimous vote during an armed coup can hardly be called “democracy”. Not to mention burning people alive.
So rather than keep an open mind or consider facts and counter-arguments you will just buy into the highly discredited Russian media view.
Here are some inconvenient facts that discredit your view and your last reply:
— It was not an “armed” coup. That’s the Russian media version. Some police were armed as they fired on protesters. Perhaps a handful of protesters had and fired weapons. But top leaders FLED Ukraine, Yanukovych, the head of SBU (KGB successor), the Interior Minister responsible for police, and others — EVEN THOUGH they still had full control of the police forces. AFTER they fled and there was a power vacuum and no new orders for police, opposition leaders held a session of Parliament in which Yanukovych was removed from power with a quorom and members of his OWN party who condemned him for the police shootings. That is not an ARMED coup.
— What happend in Odessa was deplorable. However, there is a lot of murky information about what exactly happened and who was behind it. Local Euromaidan supporters tried to rescue people from the burned building (this was captured on video and photos, which never made it to Russian media, BTW). They also said that those who threw molotovs at the Odessa Trade Union Building were not part of their organization. Indeed, the pro-Russian protesters MOSTLY came from Russia or Transnistria. Actual Odessa residents had been somewhat indifferent about the new government (although they were never threatened for speaking Russian), but after the burning incident at the Trade Union Building, the city largely and firmly came out in support of a UNITED UKRAINE, and rejected any of the pro-Russian calls. This would not be possible, if locals actually believed the attack was carried out as an anti-Ruissian attack by Kyiv.
I was in Odessa in April and July (before and after), and I can tell you from personal experience that the trade unions building fire GALVANIZED SUPPORT for a United Ukraine in Odessa. Odessans famoulsy and publically told Putin “we don’t need saving!”
These are facts, Oleg. Making a baseless accusation or saying there’s no arguement only belies that you are not analyzing anything, but only keeping a single, close-minded view.
I suggest you visit any stable part of Ukraine with an open mind and you will see for yourself. Did I mention that I met many Russians IN Ukraine during this period who realized that what Russian media told them was all lies? Because that happened often too.
Cheers.
Your logic is brilliant. The Russian propaganda is all lies, lies, lies, but please trust me
– I’m telling the truth. Your so called “facts” sound exactly like the pro-Kiev brainless propaganda.
There was an armed coup – some people had guns and Molotov cocktails, some baseball bats, some chains, some wielded bulldozers aganist the police, etc. This has been documented. Yanukovich offered a compromise which was accepted and guaranteed by the Foreign ministers of Germany, France and Poland. However, the violent mob was out of control and negated the agreement by continuing the attacks.
(The above mentioned ministers should be held accountable for this as well since their signatures happened to mean nothing). Yanukovich being a coward but still an elected president had to flee. After that, the mob lead by neo-Nazis seized control of the Duma. If this isn’t an armed coup (supported by Nuland, Pyatt, McCain et al.) than I don’t know what is.
As to the Odessa events, you are just propagating complete lies. The protesters and the victims were all Ukranian citizens. And please don’t repeat the mantra “they just locked themselves in and set themselves on fire”. There’s simply nothing to discuss there.
You demonstrated my point. I know from personal experience and facts on the ground that Russian Media lied in many examples. One example is that Kyiv’s media had mixed views and nuanced reporting about the Odessa fire. It did not draw sweeping conclusions. But Russian media reported that Kyiv onlyroduced a one sided view. Anothe rRussian media lie (which you have followed with no question or critical thinking.)
And it still stands to reason: if Russian media’s version of the events in Odessa were true. Then Odessa should have turned more firmly ‘pro-Russian’. And the opposite happened.
So thanks for demonstrating that you are only an uncritical follower of the Russian media view who does no think for himself.
By the way, did you see any of the events in Kyiv firsthand? … Didn’t think so. Other than repeating the same lines, have you actually addressed the very clear I information I presented? Not really.
Best of luck, I will,stop wasting my time on a site where no one thinks for themselves. And keeps a closed mind
Again all I hear is just noise and the claim I’m a brainwashed simpleton. You have no arguments nor facts. Concerning Ukrainian media, I think what they are doing is unprecedented in terms of blatant lies and fakes.
Here’s what the most well known Ukranian journalist A. Sharii thinks about the Ukranian mass media (and his latest debunking) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peXwnyDA2r8
AP is very well organized.
AP is very well organized.
AP has some problems with his arguments, but at least he persisted.
*he’s using the very tactics Parry is discussing in the preceding article
*his view is an echo of Victoria Nuland’s
*he hasn’t been reading Parry over the past year or so on Ukraine
*he states Parry is blaming Nuland for what he says is not a coup, but this is not what Parry says
*he uses personal experience, such as when he used a particular form of transport in Ukraine, to draw absolute conclusions
*he suggests that his being in Ukraine and visiting many locales there makes him an expert on ALL of Ukraine
*he blames questioners and disagreers with the same name-calling he accuses them of using
*up against a tough audience he needs evidence versus personal opinions, in the way Parry uses evidence
Otherwise he did give us a good review of Nuland’s position on this matter.
First my original comment disappears for a couple of hours, then re-appears when I made a comment about it. Then my additional comments that counter Parry’s article with facts disappear.
Although I admire Parry for his work in the 80s, this site certainly makes him look like someone less interested in facts and easily swayed by Russian disinformation due to a prejudice that his own government could do anything right. Rather than a nuanced view that reflects reality — it’s all ‘black and white.’ So he easily jumps to the conclusions (using one-sided sources), that are put out by the Russian disinformation machine. What was called a “useful idiot” in Stalin’s time. — A real term, look it up.
Please apply the analytical skills you once had in the 80s. and don’t delete anyone’s comments because they present inconvenient facts.
This rotten mad creature should be brought to justice like the complete bunch of neocon organized criminals and fascists.
PS: Finding witnesses might be hard in a war zone, especially with intimidation tactics facing people who live in “rebel-held” areas. But Reuters found wintesses who saw a missle from the ground, in rebel-held territory that hit MH17:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/12/us-ukraine-crisis-airliner-idUSKBN0M81XF20150312
BBC reported similar. And besides significant reporting on abuses or threats against those who oppose the official “rebel” line there’s this —
http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/russian-spies-may-have-executed-troops-suspected-of-downing-flight-mh17_1557284.html
So moments after my second post, questioning why my first post was deleted… the first one re-appeared. Thanks.
Apparently my first attempt to post was deleted, even though it passed through the auto spam check, so re-posting the basics of what I said:
I’m rather neutral on Nuland and don’t care for many neo-con points of view. Regardless of how she learned to talk about Ukraine, she has it right: Russia is to blame.
Parry’s article includes some false assumptions — that Nuland is behind a coup inUkraine. I was there in Kyiv during this period. Anyone up close like I was knows that this was a genuine people’s movement. President Yanukovych’s police attack and intimidation of protesters only made the movement stronger. He delegitimized himself with each attack and his wild misinformation campaigns (which mirror the Russian disinformation, similar to what Parry writes). After his snipers shot about 100 protesters, killing most, Opposition leaders signed a deal with Yanukovych that a) allowed him to remain President for several months and possibly run for re-election and b) guaranteed his safety. In exchange, Yanu was supposed to immediately sign a parliamentary bill that would return the country to the 2004 Constitution, which limited presidential powers. Instead of following through, Yanu disappeared for days and eventually turned up in Russia. He claimed attack as he tried to flee. However, EVEN his PM who escaped with him, discredited that there was any attack on threat as they left Ukraine.
After he went missing, the ELECTED Parliament, which included the majority party (Yanukovych’s PARTY OF REGIONS) voted overwhelmingly to remove Yanu from power. It also approved an interim government, and set up new elections. THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS A COUP. The new government’s greatest “anti-Russian†action was a proposal (which was vetoed and shelved) to reduce the role of Russian language in official uses. Everything else was a fiction of Russian propaganda’s imagination… limitless imagination which I know personally from being there to be not even twisting of facts, but outright lies with impunity.
Nuland was hardly the engineer… Yanu’s attacks and idiocy made the movement stronger. His own party turned against him after his snipers killed so many, etc.
Additionally, there is SIGNIFICANT evidence that Russian weapons, and soldiers are in Ukraine. Many Russian soldiers have confessed as much in separate interviews, social media posts, etc. They have described how they were sent from military units all over Russia, how they removed insignias, or painted over the markings on tanks, trucks, etc. Advanced weapons that could only have come from Russia is well-documented. And many “leaders†of the so-called rebels are former Russian military and intelligence – this is well-documented, but conveniently ignored by Parry.
Living there and having traveled in Eastern Regions, Crimea, and other Russian speaking areas, along with seeing significant, actual polling data demonstrates clearly to me that there was not any “ethnic†tension, or desire to join Russia, NOT until Russia’s disinformation campaign, Putin’s special operations to seize Crimea, and operations to stir up rebellions in the East and other parts of Ukraine.
I don’t necessarily agree about what to do about Russia’s hybrid invasion of Ukraine… But NULAND is simply correct in describing that Russia is to blame.
Hopefully Parry or the website can bear a factual, critical reply and not delete my words again.
I have been with Parry and his view that the Russians are the better guys in this conflict but I am being swayed in another direction especially due to a report on Vice which shows how active duty Russian soldiers had been killed in the Ukraine.
Both the uprising and the coup were Neocon/USG sponsored, as was the prior Orange Revolution. The snipers and the Nazis were Neocon muscle. It was all USG subversion.
When they achieved independence post-1991, vultures descended on the Ukrainians, who got comprehensively corrupt governance.
Now order will be restored in the East, courtesy of Russia/Putin, while the Nazified West will continue to be victimized by the same pack of vultures that has been feeding on them since 1991. Only now, US Neo-liberal vultures will join the feast. Pity the poor Ukrainians.
While not agreeing with what Nuland says or does, most facts point in a far different direction, regarding things like MH17, or the so-called “coup.” If you were not in Kyiv during this period, like I was, then you could easily be swayed by either the massive flow of Russia disinformation, or the fog of a complicated situation.
In fact, it was a genuine people’s movement. It only grew strong BECAUSE Yanukovych tried to crush it or intimidate protesters with violent police attacks. He grew more and more illegitimate, AFTER his snipers shot about 100 protesters, he signed an agreement with opposition leaders which both a) guaranteed his safety, and b) kept him in power for many more months…. But required him to immediately sign a bill to revert to the 2004 Constitution which limited presidential power. Instead Yanukovych disappeared from days, fled to Russia with BS stories of how he was threatened. His own acting Prime Minsiter who fled with him, discredited Yanukovych’s stories of being attacked or threatened. AFTER he failed to keep his part of the deal AND he was nowhere to be found, the ELECTED Parliament including Yanukovych’s majority party — PARTY OF REGIONS — voted to remove him from power and set up an approved interim government, and set new elections. THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS A COUP. And it was not Nuland’s role that made the difference, but rather the strength of the movement and the change of heart of Yanukovych’s OWN party members. Other than one law that was vetoed on reducing the role of Russian language in official business — THERE WAS NEVER a threat to Russian-speakers. In fact, I am a Russian speaker and I frequently used or encountered Russian language in Kyiv, on the Maidan, all around parts of Ukraine. Russian speakers joined the movement in large numbers.
Further, a few days before MH17 was shot down, the “REBELS” bragged about getting BUK missiles and how they’d shoot down Ukrainian air force planes. OFFICIAL Russian sources also told audiences that the “REBELS” they support would soon have BUK missiles in their hands. The day it was shot down, “REBEL” social media announced they just shot down a Ukrainian military plane — except that the Ukrainians did not lose a plane — Malaysian Airlines did. Immediately the social media posts bragging about this were removed by the “rebels’. It certain FELL onto rebel-held territory, because they prevented crash site investigators, the OSCE, or others from visiting it. The rebels distrubed the crash site, some stole items of jewelry, etc from the scattered baggage, AND they moved critical parts of the plane. That’s not proof, but if they were “innocent” they would certainly facilitate the proper assessment to help prove their innocence.
Nuland may be skilled at how she talks about Ukraine. And I have disagreed with neo-cons on many issues. But in this case, she is correct: Russia bears the responsibility for this conflict. The evidence that rebels have advanced weapons that could only come from Russia is overwhelming The evidence of Russian troops who have admitted they fought in Ukraine (without insignias) under direct guidance or command from Russian military is continuing.
Having visited those regions not long before conflict, and looking at polling data, it is clear that there was not an “ethnic” conflict. Those who rebelled were under the influence of Russian disinformation about the new governemnt and/or directly lead by Russian military/intelligence. Known leaders of the “rebels” are from Russia with such background.
Cheers.
It just seems too easy to blame Russians or their allies for shooting Malaysian airliner. Targeting of high-altitude civilian aircraft by a ground based anti-aircraft missile system can not be attributed to any “mistake”. Since I have consulted several sources from anti-aircraft artillery units in Poland on this matter, everyone of them called the “mistaken shootdown” theory a complete nonsense. Therefore even if we assume that the rebels or Russians are responsible, the question remains about their motives. Here we are faced with a strong contradiction, since it is highly unlikely for anyone on the Russian or Russian-allied side to expose its cause to Western accusations or even military pressure. Moscow and her Ukrainian rebels had arleady been under severe international critisism and sanctions regime before this crash occured. I do not deny Russian involvement or even some presence of their military services in Ukraine. Russia has legitimate interests in this region and would be unwise to sit back and wait as her neighbourhood disintegrates. But committing such a crime would certainly NOT benefit Russia. It also seems unlikely that rebels might have done it themselves without Russian knowledge. Secondly, if the Western intelligence services were so convinced about Russian responsibility, what about the evidence? Is it too secret to be exposed in face of the death of hundreds of innocent civilians? In 1962 the US did not hesitate to show the photos of Soviet missiles in Cuba despite that no one died from those weapons. Why not in this case? Well, the answer might be that the West at least shares much of the blame for what happened in July 2014 and in the Ukrainian crisis in general. They are aware of it and find it convenient to stay silent on the matter. It explains why the investigation into Maylasian airliner crash so quickly disappeared from public debate.
“…AFTER his snipers shot about 100 protesters…”
When you wrote the above I knew you were full of crap. You were in Kiev and drank the KoolAid.
Those snipers were Nuland’s Nazis.
In case you haven’t been paying attention, Putin has won. Get over it.
It is not ‘russian disinformation’ that a huge number of the coup members are Ukrainian nationalists, meaning fascists and nazis. You can see who is in the cabinet – Svoboda, Right Sector, Fatherland Party. To say that this is Russian disinformation, is neocon disinformation.
Don’t believe me, see for yourself:
(GUARDIAN UK) Who exactly is governing Ukraine?
(GLOBAL RESEARCH) The U.S. has Installed a Neo-Nazi Government in Ukraine
ridiculous! At the very least, go to internet sites (Check out Global Research on this subject) that show what the immediate after-effects of firing a Buk missile are. There would have been a long trail of white visible in the blue skies over Eastern Ukraine for at least 10 minutes. Someone would have photographed it. Damage to the sides of the aircraft, particularly at the level where the pilot was seated, suggest that the plane was attacked at close range by missiles. I was in Myanmar and Thailand at the time of this disaster and it had all the makings of a repeat of 9/11 with headlines in the papers screaming “Putin Has Blood On His Hands” within 24 hours of the crash itself. This meme was repeated in the Journal of Foreign Affairs simultaneously for a few months into the Fall 2014 until Mearsheimer saved them from their idiocy. Given the craziness and chutzpah of the neocon cabal in Washington DC it’s a probable conjecture that this was another false flag attempt that quickly fizzled because these people are simply not as smart as they think they are — and public gullibility is growing thin. If you want final proof, ask yourself who was behind sequestration of all the data gathered from the crash itself: Why was the public never informed as to the final statement regarding the cause — Maybe because some people in the West hope that you’ll just forget what happened.
Why did Hillary Clinton bring Nuland, former adviser to VP Dick Cheney, into the State Department? The answer to this seems very relevant to the next presidential election.
I completely agree, the answer to this question may well be the answer to All of our perplexing questions…
Read more on Victoria Nuland’s appointed to the State Department here.
(WHIRLED NEWS) The strange appointment of Victoria Nuland as State Department Spokesperson
By Patricia H. Kushlis
Nuland and her hubby — war pigs.
Nuland is of the Goebbelsian propaganda school where it doesnt matter whether or not what she says is true, it becomes the truth because its repeated enough. I do wonder if she thinks she can survive nuclear war. We live in dark times a pivotal moment where the Empire really is upping the ante. We may not survive it.
thank you for showing how deceitful these neocons really are
seems like the US is the new USSR !
No, that is totally wrong: The necon-US is getting more and more a HITLER-style regime, a NAZI-regime, mentally sick, preparing and organizing chaos, regime-change, war, ethnic clensing all over the world: “Exceptionalsm”, “leader of the world”, “to be the first”, are nothing but synonyms for conquering the world. The US is getting the most hatetd state in the world.
The neocons should be eliminated before they tahe their chance destroying the world.
Considering the gross stupidity of Americans — liberals and conservatives — and their willingness to swallow whole any and all propaganda, I would not count on the neocons being eliminated. The question is: Which will come first, their desire to destroy the world (another thing they have in common with Hitler) or the end of a planet that will support human life? I am glad to say they cannot destroy the planet, only much of the life on it and the nonsense humans call civilization.
Huley’s comment is well taken. When one understands the sympathy for Nazism that existed in the U.S.A. — some of the Bush family’s assets were taken as they had been financing the Nazis — and one looks at the postwar assault on civil liberties and ALL leftists, one begins to understand that everything that has happened since WWII is very logical. The people who thought we should have been part of the Axis powers have gained greater and greater power (I understand that Nuland is their grandbaby), and who can be surprised that they are hailing the neo-Nazis in Ukraine as their best buddies?
Russia told the EU that they had a sat image proving Kiev Right Wing Nazis in charge of the Kiev military actually shot down the plane in an effort to blame Russia. Immediately Merkel and Holland made a desperate trip to Moscow to keep them from responding…Notice, not one corporate media has ever brought that issue up again. EU and foreign governments also know who really did 911, and PUTIN threatened to go public on that issue too.
The crash occurred over territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists, during a battle in Donbass, in an area controlled by the Donbass People’s Militia. According to American and German intelligence sources, the plane was shot down by pro-Russian separatists using a Buk surface-to-air missile fired from the territory which they controlled. The Russians denied any and all access to the wreckage, contravening standards for investigating civilian aircraft disasters. Evidence from open sources indicated that separatists in Ukraine were in control of a Buk missile launcher on 17 July and transported it from Donetsk to Snizhne.
Immediately after the crash, a post appeared on the VKontakte social media website attributed to Igor Girkin, leader of the Donbass separatists, claiming responsibility for shooting down an AN-26, but after it became clear that a civilian aircraft had been shot down, the separatists denied any involvement, and the post was taken down. Malaysia said intelligence reports on the downing of MH17 were “pretty conclusive”, but more investigation was necessary to be certain that a surface-to-air missile brought down the plane.
US sources attributed the downing to a missile fired from separatist-controlled territory, with their judgment based on sensors that traced the path of the missile, analysis of shrapnel patterns in the wreckage, voice print analysis of separatists’ conversations in which they claimed credit for the strike, as well as photos and other data from social media sites.
The underlying assumptions of this and other articles by Mr. Parry on this and other questions regarding Russia is that anything the West says is always a lie and anything Putin says is always the truth.
What absurdity!
You should apply for a job at the State Department, but I have a few points to question.
1. The territory held by the “separatists” is so small that it would be impossible to determine that anything occurred “over” that territory.
2. According to German and US propaganda, the plane was shot down by ….etc.
3. The Russians denied any and all access to the wreckage, but the US analyzed the shrapnel patterns and there was plenty of pictures and other data from social media.
4. There were sensors all over the place but there has been no presentation of such data.
5. Some separatists admitted to downing the plane, proven by “voice print analysis of their conversations”.
6. Parry thinks the West always lies, and Putin always tells the truth. This is called personalization. How about, ” the West always lies, but the East always tells the truth”. Or, Victoria Nuland always lies, and Putin always tells the truth”. None of these ways of saying it are true, but the first one seems less absurd because it is clever propaganda, and that’s the point.
If from this article you don’t question US sources on, oh, most things these days then pity you.
Meanwhile here’s some proper, rational analysis about MH17:-
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/133434.html
Your sources are not credible at all. None of those “analyses” have any value at all, and the suppression of information by the US proves the deception.
1. “sensors that traced the path of the missile”
In fact no such evidence was presented or claimed: the whole debate would be different if that existed. The US denied any such photos and presented none. Russia claimed photos showing Ukraine fighter planes near the plane.
2. “analysis of shrapnel patterns in the wreckage”
The evidence was concealed, reports were of shrapnel vs. bullets although photos showed bullet-like holes. If a missile it might have just as well have been air-launched. If ground-launched, both sides had SAMs in the area.
3. voice print analysis of separatists’ conversations … from social media sites.
This evidence is absurdly vague and suspect. If such persons so claimed, it was apparently gossip; we are of course not given the contrary gossip.
The fact that the USG suppressed the aerial photos, flight recorder data, ATC communications, etc., and accused Russia repeatedly of sending in armored divisions with no evidence whatsoever, proves the intent to deceive We the People by any and all means whatsoever. No USG “evidence” in this matter has any credibility, and those who accept it at face value merely state a lack of concern for truth and justice.
Have you read Robert Parry’s article “Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case” (October 20, 2014)? I believe this article is based on a Der Spiegel article where German Intelligence, the BND, claim that they believe that the “rebels” shot down MH-17 but they did it with a “captured” BUK missile system from a “Ukrainian Military Base”! Also in the article it points out that the German BND dismiss Russian evidence of an SU-25 shoot-down but also that photos provided by the Ukrainian Government of MH-17 “have been manipulated”. Also, you are using “evidence” from “social media” as evidence? Well for me, if this truly was shot down by Russia or the “rebels” I am sure that the US would have satellite data since I believe there was a satellite overhead on that day and the US being the largest surveillance apparatus on the planet. With such surveillance power available to the west, why has the investigation of MH-17 devolved to mainly evidence from “social media”?
By the way, here is the article to Mr. Parry’s article.
Consortium News: “Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case” (October 20, 2014):
https://consortiumnews.com/2014/10/20/germans-clear-russia-in-mh-17-case/
Go away, troll.
It looks like as you were telling Mr. Parry what American intelligence sources think about this. I recommend you pay a bit more attention to the content of the articles here rather than just post meaningless propagandist comments. Step 1: find what American intelligence actually thinks about the MH17 downing. Hint: browse articles on consortiumnews
” The crash occurred over territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists, during a battle in Donbass, in an area controlled by the Donbass People’s Militia. ”
The MH17 shootdown occured over the Russian-Ukrainian border. Why did MH17 end up there, and not over the sea of Azov, which is where the flight route was. Only the pilot and the ground control in Kiev could have diverted the flight from it’s path. The coup government in Kiev won’t release their tapes.
The Obama Adminitration won’t release it’s ‘classified’ satellite images.
Where is the evidence? Share a link, at least one (but not from your newspapers). Russia has provided detailed information, which owned. Why Ukraine still has not given information on the conversations of dispatchers (and you know that the dispatcher is disappeared) and the schedule of flights their combat aircraft. And was not questioned witness a Ukrainian, who worked at the air base, and he saw how flew Su-25 with warheads, and returned to base empty. Why did not question the witness and the pilot?
The Nudelmans and Kagans of this world have been propagandists for a fair bit more than since 1980 AD.
Cookie Nudelman is perhaps beginning to lose some of her chocolate chips?
2LT Dennis Morrisseau USArmy [armor – Vietnam era] retired. POB 177 W Pawlet, VT 05775
802 645 9727 [email protected]
I’m terribly sorry, but I would like to post this small joke from the other side of the ocean. The knowledge of geography and facts shown by representatives of the U.S. State’s Department is so overwhelming that one can proudly claim:
“1 nuland = 100 psakis”
Thank you for your attention, please don’t be insulted.
PS Jane Psaki and Marie Harf are inventors of the Belarussian sea (Belarus is a landlocked country), Rostov mountains (Rostov region in Russia consists of flatlands only) and the dependence of Russian on European export and gas (it’s the opposite in reality). For Europeans it’s like saying Grand Hill of America instead of the Great Canyon and Lincolnton instead of Washington.
PSS Mrs. Nuland claimed that Crimeans are mostly unhappy about joining Russia (well, according to the German GfK survey published in BloombergReview only 4% are unhappy – but it’s of course a lie, evil Putin must have put pressur eon GfK to puvlish these data).
Thanks for telling the truth.
Of course, as was to be expected, the senate committee bought it all.
they’re supposed to,
after all, their masters from aipac and israel demand it!
We are blind if we only see the US and Israel, not how al Qaeda is adding the grease.
I wish Robert Parry would relate possible similarity between the killing of Boris Nemtsov, the Russian opposition leader with the assassination of Rafic Hariri by al Qaeda to successfully cause chaos. The C Chechnya’s were told Nemtsov was being targeted for anti-Islam cartoons, but Beslan Shavanov committed suicide obviously to prevent from saying more.
Fortunately during the Cold War al Qaeda wasn’t around to fake a Soviet attack on the US and Vise visa.
Let’s stop a new cold war to prevent al Qaeda from attempting in their mind absolute victory. Robert Perry please dig up the details the way you did Rafic Hariri’s assassin.
It’s my belief that very few people even in Washington actually believe the craftily prepared propaganda from people like Nuland.
Instead, they have come to realize the all-too-unfortunate truth that if one wants to “get ahead” in Washington and elsewhere in the government you must go along with whatever claptrap is currently being peddled. Why must you go along? Well, because the powers that are behind this uniformly tolerated misdirection are so great that, were they turned against you while you work in government, could quickly destroy your future.
And, it’s not just in government. It’s true in corporations, churches, clubs and virtually all human associations too.
Here’s how I school my children:
1) Most young people would like to “get ahead” during their lives and careers.
2) But all too often one must “get along in order to get ahead”.
3) “In order to get along you most often must go along.”
4) Sometimes you’ll be asked to go along when doing so violates the principles of good citizenship and humanity I’ve taught you all your lives.
4) Speaking from experience, I know that late in life “the most haunting regrets you will have about what you did in life will be about when you went along in violation of your principles.”
5) With that in mind and from the outset of your life you might want to reevaluate the importance of getting ahead.
Dad