Prof. John Mearsheimer and ex-C.I.A. Russia specialist Ray McGovern discuss the Ukraine conflict and U.S. policy towards Moscow, presented by the Committee for the Republic in Washington.
Volume 29, Number 332— Thursday, November 21, 2024
Very informative and complete discussion. I have a “related” question concerning Taiwan. A lot of people, seeing Russia as the sole aggressor instead of reacting to a perceive threat, believe that it will become a signal for China to invade Taiwan. Ukraine first, Taiwan next. They do not go beyond propaganda, Ukraine is not part of any block yet, while Taiwan is supported by the USA. They have no idea of the pressure put on each of these countries by the Western block or the strategic meaning of the China Sea for China and the USA (one could say that the USA was ready to go to war against Japan over its control before World War 2). That kind of thinking opens door to another round of propaganda.
Russia and China are on the same line as European and North American countries as far as the “Elites” are concerned (looking for power and getting rich, put simplistically), or in other words, neither one is better or worse than the other. They have their own goals, Russia seems to be keeping control of its ressources, China to assert its status of international power and the Western block to keep a waning supremacy (doing everything to prevent its decline). Which one is the more dangerous, should be the question of the everyday person in the world.
This seems to be the perfect tie to bring this up.
On March 7/22 @ 23:16 K writes”Moral decency would demand that we had compromised with Russia to save American lives.”
At this juncture is seems clear that the problems we have in Ukraine grew out of the neocon agenda driven by the obsession by said group to destroy Russia.
For K and all others to get the true read on the neocon mind may not be that easy for some. Over the last four or five years I think I’ve come to understand them better. This is not a pretty picture in my humble opinion. But to understand the opposition you must first understand what makes them tick!
In 2016 Jane Mayer wrote DARK MONEY The HIDDEN HISTORY of the BILLIONAIRES BEHIND the RISE of the RADICAL RIGHT. 380 with 43 pages of notes. This book gets down and dirty exposing much of the extreme right’s actions throughout the last 70 plus years.
Although she communicates the Koch brother gave her a rough time, I don’t beleieve she has been sued so far.
I was amazed at learning a history I thirst for, something that because of it’s detail intrigued me and I dove in.
She does a brilliant job of explaining in detail a the sordid tale of how the super wealthy of the time bought influence in prestigious Universities to spread the teachings of Friedrich Austin von Hayek. Including the practice of paying new students to take associated courses.
When we examine the enormous sums of money in politics these days we have to recognize that this perversion of the process by which the two currently totally dysfunctional political parties Americans select their leadership has been a result of much of this story. A story, the history of which goes back to at least 1944 with the birth of the International Monetary Fund and lead to the Bretton Woods Conference in Dec 1945.
An interesting note is that Hayek , an Austrian native, lived in this country from 1950 to 1962.
This book is full of history carefully documented by the author through her notes. Which include the IRS discovering hidden funds used to finance your CIA desperate for “dark” funding.
She tracks this history very closely, tying up the loose ends an in the end making the obvious connections to present day politics, right wingers, neocons and I believe Zionist. My words not hers. On page 370 she starts the discussion of the election of Nov 4, 2014, you might wish to read that page at the book store.
“We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can’t have both. ”
Louis Brandeis
Thanks CN
Second line, not American lives, (Freudian slip I guess) should read Ukranian lives.
Moral decency would demand that we had compromised with Russia to save Ukrainian lives.
“k” you are 100% right about this. Unfortunately those of us whose moral values agree with your point are not calling the shots. It seems that when it comes to moral values far too many members of congress and others in government check those values at the city limits of Washington D.C..
I never thought going to war in Iraq was a good idea and since the Saudis were heavily involved in 911. The result of of this misplaced aggression was the wanton pornographic slaughter of innocents for a period of twenty years.
Listen for complaints from congress about this slaughter and you’ll hear only the sound of crickets.
Now Biden and his neocon buddies have inserted themselves into another misguided attempt to mold the world into their desired model. The model to which the neocon, right wing and ,I believe, Zionist aspire. The model that places the preponderance the money and power of the state into the hands of a very few.
No one is asking the American public about these decisions that our impotent congress refuses to debate and rubber stamps instead.
Unfortunately “moral decency” has become the buss phrase of the evil doers, and has been, years before the Iraq debacle. Ask the Palestinians and the natives of several south American countries.
Moral decency should not reserved for only those the American government claims to be motivated to assist. This is a shameful travesty and the origins can be traced back to those super wealthy right wingers, and those they bought off. To many democrats involved also to count because no left wind exists in the U.S. government.
Proof exists, simply read “Dark Money” and you will learn how the super wealthy of America perverted the system to gain and the unwarrented advantage of undo influence over all branches of our government.
All of which result in black roses and sad music for those of us who love our country.
Thanks CN
Indeed!
This video is the most interesting , informative talk I had the good fortune to listen to on this subject.
I came away with the question I keep asking myself burning in my brain. Who in the hell is pulling the strings here?
When Ted Postol discusses the Russian early warning system he makes an essential point. One that leads the observer to question the rationality of American leadership.
His statements about being laughed at by Pentagon Officials, still after twenty years tends to make my blood boil.
So what is it these arrogant bastards know that we don’t?
Great program and thanks to all involved and especially the crew at CN.
Sets indeed “a standard to which the wise and honest may repair”
McGovern’s video on Nyland-Pyatt is excellent. May I use it in a class I may give on Russia/Putin?
correction: Nuland-Pyatt!
It is available here: hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV9J6sxCs5k
Great discussion. Particularly appreciated the rationale of Messers Mershheimer, McGovern, and Matlock (sound like a law firm). Ted Postal’s point about Russia’s early-warning system is something that everyone should be aware of as it makes this entire scenario even more frightening.
A couple things I really did not care for: Bruce Fein’s Pollyanna-ish comments that made him appear far out of his element when discussing world politics. Also agree that the phony Skripal poisoning not being rebutted was annoying
I KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW, RIGHT?!?!?! :)
La patte griffée NAZI de la BÊTE IMPÉRIALISTE OCCIDENTALE WASHINGTONIENNE ET DE SES VASSAUX DE L’OTAN EN Ukraine.
Le gouvernement fantoche golem de la Bête: le Parti National-Socialisme de Zelensky, soit le Parti NAZI en Ukraine.
Good to hear Ray McGovern. The moderator who takes over later brings up some prickly points that have been bugging me.
One is the idea of “existential threats”, their legitimacy and what may be justified in response to them. I’m no legal expert, just trying to get a common sense understanding of events. The moderator pointed out that other countries may feel such threats but don’t necessarily go to hot war over them. But no examples were given.
I realize the threats that Russia enumerates are severe as they involve moving Western nuclear weaponry right up to its borders, the so-called encircling of Russia, along with the ongoing flaunting of treaties and international law by the U.S. and NATO. Now Russia too is acting illegally to counter those threats.
Laws to dissuade such behavior flounders with no apparent neutral arbiter, no enforcement. How is the charge of illegality at this point even meaningful since it primarily serves as part of a blame game?
Increasing the prospect of a nuclear strike through provocation, overreaction or accident would seem to me ultimately to put most sentient beings on Earth at existential threat. Why do so few people in positions of political power hold so much sway over the existence or de-existence of everyone else? Why do people think this is OK?
And, the bearded guy just blows smoke in his imagination.
where can i find information on the role of the neo nazis in ukraine?
thank you
Right here on consortiumnews.com. There have been many articles in the last
several weeks, including the historic writings of Consortium News founder Bob
Parry, written in 2014 and 2015.
McGovern was the only one who brought up the Nazi issue and then it seemed as an after thought, (crucial to the success of 2014 regime change) and I don’t think Nord Stream was mentioned.
See excellent article on this site by Alex Rubinstein and Max Blumenthal.
One can see how this discussion group are more immersed in the US system and carry some of its foibles in varying degrees, not to say they don’t make valid points. But for me Mercouris and Ritter are less culture bound and have very good overall appreciation of the issue, just my view.
It seems to me the US foreign policy is very much about profit at all cost for its corporations, and its clear that US wants to dissuade Euro and Russian co-operation or even better, Russia regime change (just two examples) or euro conflict, so US product benefits. However the US is so brutal in its pursuit of money advantage it continually endangers world peace.
Must also mention Prof Mearsheimer comment that Ukraine will be destroyed similar to the US attacks in Iraq. He does not make the distinction of the Russian military tactic of surrounding the enemy, as in Syria and allowing corridors of civilian escape or giving the Ukraine Army the opportunity to surrender, and if not to block off supplies so that surrender is the only option or death. The infrastructure remains largely intact. I can only hope the extra ISIS troops and US reinforcements through Poland don’t cause a Russian tactic change. A diabolical move by the US in my opinion, lives are meaningless, just unrelenting attempt at world domination.
Perhaps the Mearshimer view will become operational due to the intransigence of the Nazi opposition. They know what ‘denazification’ means and thus have no inclination to surrender, nor any scruples about slaughtering Ukrainian people.
In Ukraine seems to reign chaos. After 25000 firearms of all sorts were handed out to civilians and even hard core criminals were set free, aimed gangs are roaming the streets,robbing and looting people and shops. Warlords are ruling some areas and Selinsky was blabbering in a press conference. Drunk or drugged? Who knows?
Thank you for this in-depth informative presentation. First time I’ve heard of Prof. Mearsheimer. Shows how uninformed I am! Ray McGovern, I’ve followed his fine peace work for years. Hope you have Glenn Greenwald on sometime. Wish that Prof. Mearsheimer had even a few minutes on the cable networks. No chance of that happening. Or better yet, were listened to by Biden administration….before things get worse. Also, good to hear again from Mr. Matlock (remember his excellent Consortsium article of not long ago.) Here we have 3 wise men! May their gifts of peace through intelligent diplomacy prevail, sincerely, Carolyn Grassi M.A. Poli Science (former CA community college teacher) poet…
Many many thanks for a great video! It is very encouraging that there are still a few sane men still around.
I have two comments. I am not completely comfortable with Mearsheimer’s pragmatic views about international law. The law is not perfect, either domestically or internationally. Countries follow the law to a degree. America in the past was called a “nation of laws”, meaning the law was mostly followed. Today the U.S. is a rogue state, closer to a banana republic. Even the constitution is violated. When the law is not followed, a society disintegrates. I think our government has become used to the idea of violating the law and it is creating huge problems. Our government has become a criminal organization. A superpower can flout international law– for a while, but there are consequences.
My other comment is there seems to be a lack of knowledge about Ukraine’s politics, here and elsewhere, because commentators keep talking about Ukraine’s attitudes as a singular entity. In fact, Ukraine is made up of different factions and ethnic groups that are in conflict with each other. Some are pro-Russian and some are not. After the 2014 coup, Ukraine essentially entered a civil war. I wish there was more acknowledgement of this reality in these discussions.
Regarding your comment that Ukraine has entered a civil war: Yes, I agree. Until reading some of the articles here on Consortium News and some of the links out from those, I had not appreciated how strongly Ukraine is divided between pro-Russian and anti-Russian factions. That gives me a new perspective on the breakaway eastern regions of Ukraine, for which I had hitherto accepted the notion that Russia had pressured them to break away. Now I am unsure of that, to say the least, and look forward to learning more about the political dynamics there.
Thanks for this discussion it provides great information on the background for the conflict.
The Professor has somehow omitted the role of neo-Nazis in spearheading the US `directed coup in 2014, their hideous burning alive 55 of anti-coup protestors in Odessa, and the role of the Azov Battalion and its allies in seeking the ethnic cleansing of the Donbas, leading to 14,000 deaths. While not large, these groups trace their political heritage back to the Stepan Bandera’s Nazi units, and carry an outsize influence in the Ukraine military and government. Russia has stated it goals are to”de-militarize” and “de-Nazify” Ukraine. The first objective is nearly complete, having encircled much of the Ukraine military. The second is more problematic, as the Nazi groups are retreating into civilian area, using the people as human shield. The Russians seem to be following the strategy they used in the liberation of Aleppo. They did not do to Aleppo what we did to Baghdad or Mosul. Rather they sought, i.e. open a “humanitarian corridor” for the jihadists and “send ’em to Idlib,” The professor and is therfor wrong about Russian goals. The West is not fighting this war. Russia is. Their way, not ours. They do not want a political vacuum in Ukraine, or make war on civilians. The would prefer to keep local governments intact while simultaneously conducting negotiations to get from Kiev a neutral or pro-Russian government, or perhaps a confederation with which they can live. Meanwhile Zelensky is being egged on to prolong the suffering by the US and NATO and with each passing day weakens his own bargaining position.
I is not right to imply it was left out because of a cover-up of the Nazis’ existence in Ukraine. His speaking time was limited and he had a narrow focused argument–which side was most to blame for this crisis.
JDD akes good sense. The Azov batallion has powr in Ukraine, has morphed, and even has gotten representation in government. They are self appointed vigilante militias fighting the Russians in the east. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Listening to western politicians and the western media, it’s as though they are delusional or living on another planet. Quite literally anything can happen with these clowns (literally in the case of Ukraine) in charge. Where are the grown ups? Over the next few days we will see sanctions on the energy trade. Goodbye German economy. Hello Great Depression. Followed by No Fly Zones, direct clashes with Russian forces, WW3.
Agree. Most of these panelists are detached from reality. The US is the bully of the planet. Russia has said, your aggression stops here. That’s what this confrontation is about.
Good discussion, I especially appreciated Postol’s pointing out the disparity in missile warning systems. That offhand credence to the Skripal poisoning hoax early in the conversation was pretty lame though, would have been nice if someone had rebutted it.