LISTEN: The Imperial Presidency

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Scott Harris of WPKN 89.5 FM Radio in Bridgeport, Connecticut, interviewed Consortium News’ Editor Joe Lauria about the U.S. Imperial Presidency and Donald Trump.

TRANSCRIPT

Scott Harris: Right now, I’m very happy to welcome to our program, Joe Lauria, editor in chief of Consortium News. He’s a long time journalist who’s written for many publications, including The Boston Globe, the London Daily Telegraph, the Johannesburg Star, the Montreal Gazette, and The Wall Street Journal. He’s been a correspondent at the United Nations for many years. Joe, appreciate you making time to come on our program tonight.

Joe Lauria: Thank you very, very much. So good to be here.

Scott Harris: So we invited you here to talk about your recent article published at Consortium News, which was titled ‘The Imperial Presidency Marches On’. And that, of course, had to do with Donald Trump. Not long after his January 23rd inauguration, he pronounced his intention to retake the Panama Canal, purchase Greenland, and make Canada America’s 51st state.

The ravings of a demented lunatic? Or America’s new fascist dictator intent on resurrecting America’s ugly imperial war mongering past? That’s the question that came in my mind. I don’t know what’s going on in Trump’s mind. I don’t know what’s real, what’s was designed to distract us from other things that he’s planning to do, like with migration and cutting Social Security and Medicare.

You know, it’s just hard to figure out, even though we know this guy, he’s been around for ten plus years. But Joe, maybe just describe your reaction to hearing these ravings from Trump about manifest destiny and taking land by force, reliving America’s ugly past?

Joe Lauria: Yeah, I’m not sure it’s resurrecting. I think there’s been an unending history of expansionism, colonialism. And, yes, the hated word imperialism since our founding fathers who American like to put up on a pedestal, arguing that the United States is a country of laws and not men. And yet I live in the Washington area, and I could drive by the Washington Memorial, the Jefferson Memorial. I mean, it’s very much a country of men.

And we hold these guys up. But what did they say in their earliest writings? They called the United States an empire, a new empire, unlike others. And what did Washington say in his farewell address? He said very much forget the European empires. Don’t get entangled with them because we got a whole damn continent to conquer. And that’s what the United States, new United States on the eastern seaboard proceeded to do.

Those were nations. Those were sovereign American, Native American nations that were overtaken. Then there was that problem of Mexico down there that owned all that area. That’s the southwest of the United States. The United States took that in a war against Mexico. And then, [William] McKinley, the one that Trump compared himself to in that inaugural speech. He really likes McKinley.

McKinley was the face of America’s global empire when we were expanding beyond the continental United States and fought the decrepit, declining Spanish empire that Cromwell in Britain first fought against when they were the major world empire. But it lasted all the way until the early 20th century, when the U.S. took… well, they didn’t take Cuba, but they occupied it …Puerto Rico, Guam, Philippines, etc..

Now, I also forgot the Monroe Doctrine, of course, which came early on in the United States, in the history of the Republic, telling the Europeans, essentially, we won’t interfere in Europe. You stay out of our hemisphere. That’s the way they carved off the entire Western hemisphere, before the continent was won, very much like the Romans had to conquer the Italian peninsula from the Etruscans and other tribes, the United States had to take the continent.

But even before that was over, there was the Monroe Doctrine. Stay out of our side. Now when the First World War came around, Wilson had a hard time getting American support for that, and people pointed to Washington’s farewell address and his admonition not to entangle themselves in European empires, in European affairs. Well, that’s how the U.S. poked their noses into Europe.

And then after the Second World War, the U.S. certainly had a huge dominance over Western Europe, which we still see today, where Western European governments act very much like vassals of the United States. And, of course, in the Pacific, the U.S. found themselves like in Europe and everywhere in the world; a destroyed world with hardly any functioning governments, no industry, huge resources, and the U.S. standing pristine in the world, undamaged, with an incredible manufacturing base to get out of the Depression and fight the war.

And that’s what the U.S. Congress and the economy has very much been based on since, just continuing the war economy. And that’s why every country that the U.S. wants to overthrow, they compare them to Hitler. The U.S. leadership continues to keep re-litigating, and re-fighting World War Two. They don’t want it to end, so that Putin is Hitler. Noriega was Hitler. Milosevic was Hitler. Certainly Saddam Hussein was Hitler. And the United States is coming to the rescue. We’re the good guys. Now, I just want to say one thing and end my opening here about the word imperialism.

Before the Soviets, before socialism, before the Soviet Union, countries that were empires were very proud of being empires. Like I said, the founding fathers of this country called the United States an empire. But that became a dirty word, imperialism, and the Soviets, the socialists and Soviets made it a dirty word to the point where [Reagan called the Soviets the ‘Evil Empire’ and] I’m going to tell you, in 2008 I heard an interview on WNYC in New York. Brian Lerher was interviewing John Edwards, who was a Democratic candidate at the time, to the nomination, and it was an incredible question. He said to Edwards, ‘Is America an empire?’

And there was a pause of about 10 seconds – which is not good radio – and he says, he says, ‘Gee, I hope not.’ That was Edwards’ answer. We won’t admit that yes, America is an empire. And now Trump is openly talking about expanding territory in that McKinley-like fashion, rather than overthrowing governments and putting in people who are doing our bidding.

That’s really how the U.S. empire works. But there have been periods of actual seizure of territory, and that’s what Trump’s trying to do. That’s what it sounds like he wants to resurrect, if anything’s being resurrected.

Scott Harris: Yeah. No. If the mask was ever on about U.S. Empire and as you described it really has always been there, certainly Trump is being more blunt about his intentions about Empire.

What’s been the reaction from Europe, from Panama, from places around the globe where Trump looks like he may employ economic blackmail or military invasion to take over these lands?

Joe Lauria: Well, I tell you a guy like Donald Trump who – I grew up in New York City, so I’ve known about him for 40 years or more – I never took him seriously, thought he was a braggart, couldn’t understand why there was all this fascination with him in the tabloids, which he manipulated. His girlfriends, his wives, who cared about this guy?

And frankly, I don’t think as a private citizen people take him very seriously. But when you command the largest military force in the history of the world, people tend to listen. So we just had the example here of where he sent some flights, apparently, of some migrants back to Colombia. And the president there refused to accept the planes.

And Trump said, okay, we’re going to put a 10 percent tariff on your country. Well guess what? The Colombian president today, I think it was, accepted the planes. So he’s got enormous leverage. People don’t want to listen to him and do what he’s talking about. But he’s the president of the most powerful, still the most powerful military force and still an economic powerhouse in the world.

And Panama, said, no way. You’re not getting our canal. Greenland and Denmark, apparently a couple of weeks ago, the Financial Times reported just the other day, that Trump called the prime minister of Denmark and said, we’re taking Greenland. She said, no way. And they had an argument, a bitter, ugly argument from people who knew what the phone call was about.

What’s going to happen? Now Greenland is a particular case where Denmark, it belongs to Denmark. Still, they have autonomy, but it’s a part of the Kingdom of Denmark. Denmark is a member of NATO. The U.S. runs NATO. The U.S. even has a base on Greenland. Essentially, the U.S. already runs Greenland when it comes to national security, which is the excuse Trump has given.

They run NATO. Greenland is part of NATO territory. The United States does not need Greenland. But there’s a lot of minerals there. The ice is melting. The Arctic is going to become a focal point and maybe a place of confrontation between China, Russia and the U.S.. And so somebody has told him we need Greenland. And before he became president, he was saying he needed it.

He was calling the prime minister of Denmark, saying, we’re taking Greenland. So the Europeans are freaked out by all this. But I started this by giving the example of the Colombian president. They can all say we’re not giving it to you, but Trump seems to have a way, when you’re running, as I said, the biggest army in the history of the world, of getting your way.

Scott Harris: Yeah, I read the story, which is interesting, and I think you have to read between the lines here. But the top European Union military official, Robert Prager, was reported by Reuters to have said it would make sense now to station troops from EU countries in Greenland. What do you make of that?

Joe Lauria: Well, it’s not going to happen. Look, the Greenlanders don’t want either the U.S. or Denmark. They want, at least there’s a party there that wants independence. They got autonomy now, as I said. You know, I wouldn’t put it past Trump to say, you know, we take over your minerals and will give every citizen their $1 million. What are there, 53,000 people living in the whole country? Something like that. You can fit them all in Yankee Stadium, pretty much.

Scott Harris: Yeah, Elon Musk could cut a few checks, right?

Joe Lauria: Yeah. So maybe the people will go for that. You know, there used to be a program on TV when I was a kid, a really long time ago, about becoming a millionaire. This guy would go to the house and give a check to a housewife. So it’d be something like that. [The Millionaire ran on CBS from 1955 to 1960 and then in syndication.]

He’ll give you, he’ll make everybody a million. I’m not saying he’s going to do that, but that’s the kind of stunt that Donald Trump could pull off. He might, the United States may take control of Greenland. It sounds insane. It’s something to laugh at. And then you think about it, and then the next thing you know…. It’s part of the United States.

Scott Harris: Let me just reintroduce you. This is WPKN in Bridgeport. My name is Scott Harris. The program is Counterpoint and we’re talking with Joe Lauria this evening, editor in chief of Consortium News, a long time journalist. And, we’re talking about his recent article at Consortium News, which is titled ‘The Imperial Presidency Marches On’.

And Joe, I wanted to ask you, what’s the prospect for domestic opposition? Should Donald Trump not just be using these threats of imperial takeovers of other countries as a distraction from other plans he’s got during his four years in office? But if he actually does launch military invasions or other hostile acts against other nations to take over their land, what’s the domestic opposition like?

I mean, there’s a long history of peace groups here, opposing militantly in the streets, U.S. wars from Vietnam onwards. But what do you think will happen? Domestically if this happens? Well, if this if this should come to pass?

Joe Lauria: You know, fortunately there are historical records. I don’t have to speculate too much. George H.W. Bush invaded Panama. [in 1989]. I was in Panama a little more than a year ago, and there’s a great museum there of the canal. It goes throughout the entire history, too., and the invasion by the U.S. I mean, this is another little state, a part of the Monroe Doctrine, that they could do whatever the hell they want to.

And what was the reaction then? Was there protest? Yeah, there was some. I remember them, they weren’t large. They were not large at all. There was a very good film about Panama – I’m trying to remember the name – about the invasion. Terrific. Elizabeth Montgomery, the actress, narrated it and it really showed what an outrageous thing George H.W. Bush did, bombing this entire neighborhood of poor people, killing maybe a couple of thousand innocent people to get Noriega.

We don’t even know why he wanted to get Noriega, what he had. It was always speculated if he had dirt on Bush or the Bush family or something. He was an asset of the C.I.A.. Another example. There were much larger demonstrations, clearly in the first invasion of Iraq in 1991. And then, of course, before 2003, which was the largest we’ve seen, recently, when it was clear that there was no WMD, there was no reason to invade Iraq.

Even though this a former C.I.A., asset, Saddam Hussein was a son of a B… and he was an awful guy, no question about that. But what was the reason for the U.S. invading? So once they ended the draft and the American soldiers, young people were not going to die — we have Ukrainians to do that now and the U.S. is trying to get 18 year old Ukrainians to go – as long as U.S. soldiers aren’t dying that does cut down on the number of protesters in the streets.

There’s no doubt about that. That’s one main reason why the Vietnam protests got to the level where they actually pushed an end to that war. We would need, something on the size of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, of the anti-nuclear war protests in Central Park that pushed Reagan to negotiate an arms deal with Gorbachev.

So this is, you know, it remains to be seen. There should be protests. I think most people are trying to get by, trying to live without adequate health insurance, without a secure job, with unaffordable housing. Most people are living pay check to pay check, as we know. And I think the leaders of the country like it that way. Because guess what? They don’t have the time to find out, really to look into what’s going on and go out on the street and protest, like you’re suggesting.

Scott Harris: You know, I just wanted to get back to the movie you mentioned, because actually it’s called The Panama Deception. [Watch] And that documentary film was one that we showed here at our radio station years ago when it first came out. Interesting you bring that up. Joe, I guess the last question, we only have a couple minutes left, but I do want to ask you about this perception that Trump throws things at the wall in order to distract us. You know, 100 things come out every day, and it’s impossible to cover and trace and, fact check all his lies and, all the outrageous stuff he says. Whether it’s intentional or not, it does distract people from some of the maybe more nefarious things that he’s got on his agenda. Do you think these things are part of that distraction, or is it truly a threat?

Joe Lauria: I think it’s truly a threat. I’ll give a good example. First of all, I think that he, in this first week with an unprecedented number of executive orders, he’s trying to remake the entire United States political culture in one week. I don’t think anybody’s ever seen anything like it. But just look at what he said on Saturday on Air Force One, flying from Las Vegas to Florida. He said that he looks at Gaza and he called up King Abdullah the Second of Jordan, and he said, I want you to take the Palestinians from Gaza, and he’s going to call General el-Sisi in Egypt and ask him.

We’re talking about 1.5 million people, Trump says. And we’re going to move them out. We’re going to build housing for them in these other countries. This is textbook ethnic cleansing. Now, while he may not have the viciousness that Ben-Gvir or Smotrich, or even Netanyahu have in the Israeli government, in terms of ethnic cleansing, and the former defense chief of Israel said that publicly, ‘We are ethnically cleansing north Gaza….

Scott Harris: Right.

Joe Lauria: … viciously wanting to do that, he basically is looking at it like a New York City real estate mogul saying, well, that’s great territory. It’s a ‘phenomenal location.’ That’s what he said on Monday when he talked about Gaza. And on Saturday he’s saying move them out and we can make an incredible thing out of this. He’s looking at it like a sociopathic businessman.

He just doesn’t care. He’s just as evil as those people in the Israeli government, but from a different point of view. So what is he distracting us from? I think that he’s telling us what he’s doing.. I don’t see any distraction at all, frankly.

Scott Harris: All right Joe we have run out of time. But thank you so much for shedding some light and some commentary on what we see unfolding here in this first week of the Trump mania 2.0 and the rise of the Trump vision for an Imperial America. Thank you so much for being here. And all you do at, Consortium News, leave our listeners with the website where they can find the article we’ve been talking about and lots of other great, pieces of journalism.

Joe Lauria: Yeah. Thank you. We’re in our 30th year, we’re celebrating our 30th anniversary, and you can reach us at consortiumnews.com. Thanks a lot for having me on.

Scott Harris: Thank you, Joe. Good night. All right. That’s Joe Lauria, editor in chief of Consortium News.

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