While various nonsenses spouted by the former president were “fact-checked” by the moderators, the vice president’s completely clueless propaganda was endorsed and reinforced.
Donald Trump and Kamala Harris on Tuesday. (C-Span)
By Craig Murray
CraigMurray.org.uk
I just sat through a recording of the Trump/Harris debate. Ignoring the merits of their political stances, I agree with the general consensus that Vice President Kamala Harris “won” in performance terms, but only because former President Donald Trump was awful.
Both were of course terrible on Palestine. While I appreciate that that is of most interest to perhaps a majority of my readers, and that it is a key issue for a significant slice of U.S. voters, it is not what this post is about. I am considering more broadly the prospects for who becomes U.S. president.
Trump’s ability to make a coherent argument appears to have deserted him and he was easily sidetracked by Harris into irrelevant quibbles, notably on rally attendances.
Harris said nothing even vaguely impressive herself and was wide open to attack on her own record. Trump did not seem sufficiently in command of the logic of debate effectively to counterpunch.
I suspect that the debate will have done very little to affect public support, because Trump’s attack messages on immigration will motivate his followers regardless, and he kept banging them out.
But I wanted to focus on the shameless bias of the moderators in favour of Harris. The framing of questions to each candidate was far more hostile towards Trump. Let me take the first four questions asked — two to each candidate:
David Muir to Trump:
“Mr President, I do want to drill down on something you both brought up. The vice president brought up your tariffs, you responded, and let’s drill down on this. Because your plan, it is what she calls, it is essentially, a national sales tax.
Your proposal calls for tariffs, as you pointed out here, on foreign imports across the board. You recently said that you might double your plan, imposing tariffs of 20 percent on goods coming into this country.
As you know, many economists say that with tariffs at that level, costs are then passed on to the consumer. Vice President Harris has said it will mean higher prices on gas, food, clothing, medication, arguing it will cost the typical family nearly $4,000 a year. Do you believe Americans can afford higher prices because of tariffs?”
Note what is happening here. Muir twice quotes Harris and validates her assertion that a tariff is a sales tax: “it is what she calls, it is essentially, a national sales tax.”
He then quotes Harris again on it costing American families $4,000 a year. His question then to Trump is not framed as whether he agrees with Harris’ assertion, but the much more loaded question of “Do you believe Americans can afford higher prices?”
I am in general inclined towards free trade myself, but a tariff is not simply a sales tax, and the $4,000 a year claim is utter nonsense.
Muir and Trump. (C-Span)
The average U.S. household spends only about 11 percent of its consumption on imported goods. That equates to about $8,000 worth of imported goods per household per year.
Even if Trump were to slap a 20 percent tariff on all imported goods — which is not his plan — and even if all those goods currently enjoyed zero tariff — which is certainly not the case — and even if there were no import substitution and the entire cost was passed on to the consumer — neither of which would be the case, it plainly is not remotely possible that a 20 percent tariff on part of $8,000 of spending could cost $4,000.
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But whereas various nonsenses spouted by Trump were “fact-checked” by the moderators, Harris’s completely clueless propaganda was endorsed and reinforced.
Harris Lies in Debate With Trump by Claiming No US Troops Are Deployed in Combat Zones
The candidates traded barbs over Israel, Ukraine, and Afghanistan
by Dave DeCamp@DecampDave #Trump #KamalaHarris #debate https://t.co/CEXYAt22gW pic.twitter.com/QfUCMHyLcu— Antiwar.com (@Antiwarcom) September 11, 2024
Trump however ought to have been able to counter by talking of the purpose of promoting domestic production and encouraging domestic industry and agriculture. His inability to do so — and indeed to counterpunch with logical refutation on anything — made this deeply unsatisfying watching.
Linsey Davis to Trump
“I want to turn to the issue of abortion. President Trump you have often touted that you were able to kill Roe v Wade last year. You said that you were proud to be the most pro-life president in American history. Then last month you said that your administration would be great for women and their reproductive rights. In your home state of Florida you surprised many with regard to your six-week abortion ban because you initially said that it was too short and said (quote) “I am going to be voting that we need more than six weeks.”
But then the very next day you reversed course and said that you would vote to support the six-week ban. Vice President Harris says that women should not trust you on the issue of abortion because you have changed your position so many times. Therefore why should they trust you?”
Davis and Trump. (C-Span)
Note the aggression in the phrasing of this question, and the use of the negative connotation verb “touting” in the setup. Also the use of amplifier phrases… “the very next day.”
Now contrast the tone with the superficially “combative” questions to challenge Harris.
David Muir to Harris:
“We are going to turn now to immigration and border security. We know it’s an issue to Republicans, Democrats, voters across the board in this country. Vice President Harris, you were tasked by President Biden with getting to the root causes of migration from Central America.
We know that illegal border crossings reached a high in the Biden administration. This past June, President Biden passed tough new asylum restrictions. We know the numbers since then have dropped significantly. But my question to you tonight is why did the administration wait until six months before the election to act, and would you have done anything differently from President Biden on this?”
This is fascinating because plainly the intention is to appear to be tackling Harris, while the entire framing of the question is slanted to favour her.
The characterisation of Harris’ role is precisely the framing of her campaign team: she was not in charge of border control or immigrant policy, but rather of tackling “the root causes” of immigration. This is exactly how Harris wants it put, but not really true.
Furthermore the problem is presented as essentially solved, again an extremely dubious proposition, and the question is basically — why did it take you so long?
After a couple of exchanges between the candidates Muir leapt in to interject and reinforce a point already made by Kamala Harris.
David Muir:
“President Trump on that point I am going to invite your response”
Trump:
“Well I would like to respond”
David Muir:
“Let me just ask though, why did you try to kill that bill, and successfully do so, that would have put thousands of extra agents on the border?”
(C-Span screen shot)
Let us then look at the framing of another “challenging” question to Harris:
Lindsey David to Harris:
“Vice President Harris, in your last run for president you said you wanted to ban fracking, now you don’t. You wanted mandatory buyback programmes for assault weapons, now your campaign says you don’t.
You supported decriminalising border crossings, now you are taking a harder line. I know you say that your values have not changed, so then why have so many of your policy positions changed?”
Note how, with both questions to Harris, the answer is provided within the question.
The immigration question was presented as solved and the flip flop question as reflecting consistent values. Harris did grab on to the proffered lifeline and banged on about her values as a “middle class kid” and all the hard luck cases she claimed to have been inspired to help.
On Palestine, naturally both vied to present themselves as the staunchest supporters of Israel. Kamala Harris did genuflect towards protection of Palestinian civilians and the Palestinian right of self-determination, but this was so obviously a token gesture from Israel’s chief armers and funders as to not need further comment.
All in all, extremely dispiriting. Harris came over as an entirely unprincipled political operator who will adopt whatever positions serve her career, but is rather more intellectually competent than previously expected. Trump came over as a loose cannon which nobody has loaded.
As with U.K. Prime Minister Keir Starmer, there is no doubt that Harris is the Deep State shoo-in candidate, and the priming of the debate in her favour is hardly unexpected.
It does require an effort of textual analysis to pin it down, and I hope I have given you a start on that.
Craig Murray is an author, broadcaster and human rights activist. He was British ambassador to Uzbekistan from August 2002 to October 2004 and rector of the University of Dundee from 2007 to 2010. His coverage is entirely dependent on reader support. Subscriptions to keep this blog going are gratefully received.
This article is from CraigMurray.org.uk.
The views expressed are solely those of the author and may or may not reflect those of Consortium News.
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I was struck by the fact that the moderators called Trump “Mr President”.
Should I infer they believe the election was, in fact, “stolen”, or is this some US courtesy rule?
A curious Brit would appreciate an answer.
It is U.S protocol to call any man who has ever held the office Mr. President no matter how long he may live after leaving office.
Funny they never questioned either about how it is that the US is sending weapons and financial aid to ‘israel’, not only in violation of international law, but in violation of US law.
How utterly boring…same shit, different flies.
The biggest elephant in the living room of the nation is the fact that we are committing genocide in support of an extremely powerful political entity that runs the required political interference to make the genocide possible. Both the Repug and Dim national conventions displayed sickening evidence for this. At a minimum, stopping Israel would require a stop to that domestic political dominance from the US Jewish Lobby.
The ‘US government’ is a captured operation, wholly owned and working for the zionist entity
How and why does the US media see fit to shove these mediocrities under our noses with a mission to ‘inform and advise’ the lovely hoi-polloi. I have already had to sit through two such sessions one this side of the pond and one additional session of abject tedium.
What we have here has/is a politically structured manipulation. Abject tedium is the bloodstream of the new political discourse. Get used to it: Political Ideology has generally been part, faith, myth, superstition, political dogmatism and outright fanaticism.
As this tidal wave of abject rubbish wrecks its appalling destruction: the existing institutions, traditions, and values are all in the name of progress and democracy. But this is an recurring historical theme. Pick up any Newspaper, TV, show, and your mind will be spirited away from your conscious awareness into wonderland.
It is interesting that Kamala Harris attacked Trump over his vilification of the ‘Central Park 5’ whose guilt was far from certain and who were subsequently exonerated.
However, let us not forget her role as Attorney General in California where she helped block the release of Sirhan Sirhan who was framed for the assassination of Senator Robert Kennedy back in 1968.
Sirhan probably fired blanks at Kennedy who was not hit by any bullets from the front. All his wounds were from behind and at very close range.
If released, it would be possible to hypnotise Sirhan again and thus to discover who originally hypnotised him after his fall from a horse back in September 1966.
Thank you Mr. Murray, as always. I would care to note this “event” could in no way be described as “debate”,
if only viewed as preponderance of partiality provided, “monitors”.
Neither candidate intended more than speak to their own supporter positions of “issues”, and while avoiding
majority concerns representing neocon war criminal biden – Harris positions upon Gaza genocide.
Candidates confronted by “gotcha” moderator “control” of dialogue allowed Harris avoidance of responsibility
(truth) regarding. Sad, given perspective of this one of your contributors, and as sadly expected.
(we can from around bend, hear DNC contributors cheering, “FOUR MORE WARS!!”)
I haven’t watched a Presidential debate since Bush Jr. and Gore. Much prefer to read 10 different articles such as this one. It seems clear that Trump became Trump, successfully rattled by his 3 opponents, and that his empty head opponent survived with considerable assistance. My vote (meaningless in Illinois) still goes to Trump because he might be able to drain the swamp by 3 to 5%, and get the dreadful war in Ukraine ended. Harris would be a figurehead like Biden, with Department heads doing whatever they wanted to do. And during the past 3.5 years that included Blinken/Sullivan/Nuland successfully (for the US) starting the bloody debacle in Ukraine, Myorkis opening the borders, and Raimondo achieving absolutely nothing on beneficial trade agreements. Joe slept his way through his Presidency. Harris would likely be content to fly around the world in Air Force One,
Trump could drain the swamp but he didn’t last time and he never will. Both of these fools are vacuous and utterly self-fixated. Neither should be trusted as far as you can throw them.
“The viper assumes the colors of its surroundings.”
….. IMO, in less than 15 seconds, in the comfort of HER viper pit, ABC’s “controlled” studio, Harris trolling Trump, “live,” HER “joker’s” grin, on over-drive. Harris w/a single pair of long hollow fangs preys on HER dinner, HER “Orange” Crush. HER obsessive compulsive disorders, blatant smugness, smirking, rolling HER black, cold eyeballs, are straight-up “Meme” making material, i.e., “Que Mala, La Kamala!” Catfishing, America. Trump’s de bait!”
“We, did it, Joe.” Harris “got” no pushback, for, willfully, NOT answering the, 1st through the last, question. The “thought police,” ABC’s Hors’ de Debacle, went dark. DJTrump shoulda, coulda, pushed back, i.e., “So, w/all due respect, Madam V.P., Enough! please, answer the question, “When it comes to the economy, do you believe Americans are better off now than they were four years ago? Everyone’s, listening.”
Harris, the hollow man, masquerading as human, insists She’s “Not going back!”
Heads Up, Harris, neither are we, “going back,” 1) “to a POTUS who vacations 3/4’s of his term, in REHABoth. Out of sight! He’s out of his mind!!! The consensus, 3 1/2 years later, the DNC’s donors bang the drum, repeatedly, “Joey’s Done!!!” Replace him; OR, Regret it!
“Not Going Back,” 2) to representation by a political corpse posing as POTUS, Biden-Harris, masquerading as human.
“Not Going Back,” 3) to Build Back Better. Exorbitant Inflation Across The Nation. Bidenomics, an economy in extreme decline whose currency is hate & war.
“Turning the page,” is imperative. “Don’t drink the water,” Harris-Walz, “there’s blood in the water.”
Agreed! M.I.A., Trump’s “Counterpunch,” 1) “Meet, Harris-Walz a repotted Biden-Harris; but, more porky! 2) “Obviously, Kamala Harris’ takes HER role of Crises Actor, seriously. No doubt, she rehearsed tirelessly, around the clock, rattling off HER “bucket list.”
……“She’s gonna do this, that & the other,” Why hasn’t she done it? She’s been there 3 1/2 years. Tell us, Madam V.P., is covering up JOE BIDEN’s mental & physical condition, fair? Just? F.U.B.A.R.?”
“Mr. President, you recently said of Vice President Harris, “I didn’t know she was Black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn Black, and now she wants to be known as Black.” I want to ask a bigger-picture question here tonight. Why do you believe it’s appropriate to weigh in on the racial identity of your opponent?“ ABC
Another coulda, shoulda, woulda “Counterpunch” by Trump, “My answer’s been scrutinized, vilified, identified. We need clarification. Let’s pause & give “Comma La,” the floor. Madam V.P., you have said, “IF, I have anything to say, say it to your face,” tell us all, how you identify? JRBiden has repeatedly babbled about the “qualifiers” his Vice President owns. Madam Vice President, enlighten everyone! Because, many people think you’re, 100%, a Fraud. “BIGLY!”
“A calabash w/holes, cannot be filled.” Consequently, that “Harris-Trump Debate” would, should, could be the “Final” debate.
Doesn’t greatly matter who wins in November. Those who pull the strings form policy. But one thing is certain: there will be gunfire and blood will flow.
Harris came across as intellectually competent and Trump as a loose cannon…exactly.
Which is why Cheney endorsed Harris. Cheney said Trump “used lies and violence to keep himself in power.” Uh, since when has anyone in the R party plutocracy objected to that?! Also “Trump cannot be trusted with power again.” There’s the tell.
Cheney is confident Harris will retain the Cheney trained neocon acolytes now running the State Dept. The Ivy D elite is very dependable and quite able intellectually. They will make the decisions necessary for ensuring empire by means of endless wars. Whereas Trump and his cadres are unpredictable, thus unsuitable for the neocon project. The bellicose dual aspect U.S. uniparty will be less anxious about control once the Rs get past Trump.
The rest of us, the majority working class, are lessers who need only to defer to our betters. Our interests are unimportant. Our role is to serve as economic or actual cannon fodder.
The bias was obvious after the first question to Harris about her track record, which she didn’t answer at all – instead launching into a speech about her future plans if elected.
The moderators didn’t even comment on the fact that she failed to answer the question.
She’s a not so artful dodger. In fact, every bit as much as as with Trump, Harris’s mind is a blunt object.
Appreciating this astute analysis, there is so far no mention of the fact that in our supposed ‘democracy’ Dr Jill Stein was excluded from this debate, this opportunity for a broad public to become aware of the contrast offered by her platform. I must ask: will the voters of this country continue to allow themselves to be frightened into voting for the ‘lesser of two evils’? Or, will the voters choose a candidate whose platform they find worthy of support. Do we really want a President (Harris) who is committed to the creation of ‘the most lethal military’ on the globe? This while we observe the 10th month of the destruction of Palestine (no longer livable for anyone), the Palestinians, and their culture coupled with the ongoing destruction of Ukraine – a proxy war begun at least as early as early as 2014, when the Obama Administration; Hillary Clinton as Sec of State; Victoria Newland, Undersecretary who carried out the US fomented coup that overthrew the democratically elected President of Ukraine. Well, vote for Harris and we will get more of the same in spades.
Have courage. 30 % of registered voters are ‘undecided’ … and then there are registered Independents … vote your conscience, be well informed, share facts (Dr Jill Stein’s platform, speeches/interveiws) get out the vote … let’s go for real change.
Trump was unprepared and thrown back on his heels by the moderators. Kamala using the same ad hominem tactics that Trump has used in past debates, and heavily condemned for, was celebrated for winning, at any cost. Likely Kamala, like Hillary, received the debate questions in advance. Trump and his advisors should have seen this coming, and be embarrassed by his poor effort. However, the Taylor Swift endorsement of Kamala is much more consequential in today’s America.
At one time tariffs were the major tax of the federal government. Abraham Lincoln was known as the “Tariff President” and many historians have blamed his increased tariffs for the Civil War (Lincoln noted many times that he had no intention to interfere with slavery; his Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the rebel states, hoping they would rally to the Union cause. Few did.) In the first three years of the Biden administration inflation increased a cumulative 20%, and may well meet the 24% for the twelve years of Obama and Trump (<2% per year) by the end of Biden's four year term. Tariffs were a protectionist mechanism for funding nascent American industry under Lincoln at the expense of the South's commodity (cotton biggest?) profits. Today they are, like the ubiquitous sanctions, an attack on our "enemies" and free trade. Surely cumulative inflation is more dangerous to ordinary Americans than most tariffs. Pretending inflation is over and promising, if delivering, huge expenditures in exchange for votes will likely open the inflation spigots once again.
I stopped reading at : him leaning towards “free trade”.
Terribly sad. Feels like our democracy has been murdered. Two inferiors for president. Leadership seem mostly suckers for the dollar in government, the 4th estate and the private economy. The earth and citizenry be damned. Historians – what does it take to wake up a people enough to seize their own agency to change the tide instead of not caring?
While Trump could have performed much better, this was, as you imply, a 3 on 1 contest.
Even more lopsided when considering that the ‘moderators’ controlled the candidates microphones.
They wielded the power to get in a final snarky word, as Kamala BFF, Linsey did to Trump.
She claimed falsely that no state permits abortion after birth.
Where is your proof that it never happens ‘Linsey’?
Trump had no means to rebut the ‘host’ as his mike was cut off.
Election interference that, in this instance cannot be blamed on Russia.
Harris repeated various (fact-check free) lies about Trump, including the ‘fine people hoax.’
The disproven and debunked lie that Joe Biden has railed about repeatedly.
Except that the quote they select, ignores the rest of the comment which reverses the meaning of what Trump actually said.
Biden and Harris lie constantly while projecting that ‘Trump Lies.’
No ‘moderator’ ever ‘fact checks’ that lie even though it surfaces in every Harris and Biden debate with Trump.
Lies and Psy-Ops are the standard operating procedure for Democrats and the Deep State.
Biden and Harris dumped 20,000 Haitian illegal immigrants into one Ohio city of just 60,000 residents.
You did that, Kamala. Is what Trump ought to have said.
You are undoubtedly right in everything you say about the debate. But Trump is so egregiously bad no sane person could want other than to see an alternative, however disappointing that alternative might be in regard to the issues you raise, particularly the ongoing support for the increasingly pariah state of Israel. Every night on the TV News another atrocity in Gaza is attributed to the IDF and every night one is moved to wonder how long can this be allowed to go on? Sadly the Democrats in the US, as with both major parties in Australian politics, are in thrall to the small but highly vocal, rich and aggressive Pro-Zionist Jewish communities whose political influence is out of all proportion to the voting threat they offer. Supposedly democratic parties need to recognise that Israel is involved in genocide and act accordingly
And the one candidate who is right on all the important is Dr. Jill Stein, who cannot even be acknowledged by the MSM. We, the voters, however, do not have to join them in the suppression of our voices. The vote tally will tell an important tale. Whether it says we are many, they are few, or vice versa, well, that’s is up to us. Join me in letting us know just how strong we are, while at the same time making TPTB more uncomfortable than they have ever been. What have you/we got to lose by using your voice to cast a vote in an election that doesn’t matter.
Up until the 2000 election the Presidential debate was presented by the League of Women Voters. The moderators were respected journalists who asked policy questions of both candidates. It was aired without commercial interruption on PBS. Perhaps we should return to that format.
The 2 major parties absolutely don’t want that. They want the debates to be limited to their candidates, and they want to be able to control how the debates are done. We the people should find a way to fight back, but I don’t know what that would be.
Gotta love how the mainstream media earnestly assure us in authoritative tones that they’re “fact checking” with some article some establishment propagandist puts out there. These are the same blowhards and arrogant monsters who assured us Iraq had WMD, Gaddafi’s forces were committing mass rape, and that Russia’s a revanchist imperialist power. These same mainstream scribes essentially downplay or even justify the Israeli murder of probably over 100,000 Palestinians according to the Lancet.
I just love it when the choices are an incoherent serial liar conman imbecile, and a hyper-fascist Cheney-esque imperialist Republican (by any other name).
Frighteningly, Kamala is too clear again about US’ continued support of Israel’s maximally precise genocide of Palestinians.
I suggest that for most of the audience the “debate” was not about substance and issues. It was all performance of style and persona, including the surprising attack by Harris on Trump’s person. This approach was essentially that Trump is seriously damaged goods. both in legal terms and as one who continually disparages and divides the country. This underlay her essential message of “joy” or her version of “hope and change.” In short, Harris kicked Trump’s butt.
It was interesting to watch Harris, much smaller physically, bright and smiling, take down a hulking Trump whose face continually indicated he was at a loss. Afterwards. mainstream voices as with NPR indicated a 37% Trump to 73% Harris verdict and Chris Wallace stated the result was “devastating,” or the reverse of what happened to Biden in June. That is, Trump performed in the same rambling, inability to focus on a question, and predictable negative frame-working manner as usual. Prior to the debate NPR also stated via one of its surveys that 30% of the voters would use this occasion to decide who to vote for.
He misconstrued his audience, as though it were a campaign rally.
Personally, I’m voting for Jill Stein.
I was Watching George Galloway talking
about this Debate on his MOATS tonight..he was incredulous at Trump’s poor performance..And why His Team Allowed it.
Stick a fork in the Republic. It’s done.
In the closing remarks VP Harris celebrated the “lethality” of the US military – without reflection on the cold fact the overwhelming preponderance of its lethal results this past year has been suffered by defenceless civilians in Gaza.
I agree that the moderators were slanted in favor of Harris. Still, an intelligent, prepared Republican candidate could have responded effectively to the questions on tariffs and abortion. Not convincingly, but at least coherently. Trump came out badly in the debate due to his own weaknesses.
Neither candidate offers any long-term improvement in our situation, but Harris will be less damaging in the near term, particularly for women.
Oh, you think so, do you? Women cannot expect anything from a party which denies women even exist. I had an illegal abortion with no anesthesia in 1970, and I can tell you that women’s FULL reproductive rights (which go way beyond abortion) are very important to me, as is the notion that our bodies are not to be used for experimental vaccines. But women cannot organize if women don’t exist. Someone wrote that Brown Jackson is an intelligent woman; when I saw her on CBS’s morning show she came across as Step ‘n Fetchit, grinning like mad and sounding very unintelligent. A woman who cannot even define herself!
Let us remember that the Democrats are the people behind putting violent men in women’s prisons, denying women the right to privacy when they are naked and vulnerable, denying girls and women the right to play sports without competing against men. They had the ability for decades to reinforce abortion rights on the national level and they never did so because abortion is now their only issue. And giving women on the state level the opportunity to gather signatures and put abortion on the ballet is far more significant than using abortion as a political football.
I am a woman, and I fear Harris more than Trump – much more.
I’m also a woman and I agree. Harris is far more dangerous. And I used to vote Democrat.